The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

For discussion of the upcoming films based on The Hobbit and related material, as well as previous films based on Tolkien's work
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Another small bit of news:

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2014/06 ... y-pickups/

The most interesting part is that McCoy's pickups are in London, not NZ. I wonder if that is an indication that Sir Christopher Lee is involved.
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Post by Elentári »

That would be great if so! Other than that it might simply be that London fits in better with McCoy's schedule.

In other news, TheHutt has spotted an interesting quote from the new Weta Chronicles: Cloaks & Daggers, page 166.
"Later we came to film a scene in which Elrond is seen casting the blade into the Witch-king's tomb, and for that we needed a cleaner-looking version of the weapon, so I remade it with a more subtle degree of aging."
This potential scene may have been scrapped as the subplot storyline changed after AUJ but if not, and it is now scheduled for Bot5A, why would the White Council go to the High Fells before rescuing Gandalf? (That's an assumption on my part...they might go after the assault on DG, but I doubt it, somehow.) I suppose it could even be inserted into the DoS EE, but then either Elrond would have to be acting alone, or the WC would be acting without Gandalf's knowledge/involvement...
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I can't even imagine a scenario in which it makes sense for Elrond to cast the blade into the tomb, but that doesn't mean much.
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Post by Elentári »

Hmm...folks elsewhere now seem to think it would be a flashback scene involving the history of Angmar, perhaps narrated by Gandalf as he and Radagast investigate the High Fells (meaning we might get it in the DoS EE.) Can't see it myself... :unsure:
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Nor can I.
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Post by Elentári »

I think it could have been meant to be shown during the White Council scene, when Galadriel says about the Witch-King having been buried in the High Fells of Rhudaur and the Morgul blade with him, but that ship has long sailed, so I don't think it will see light of day now....
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Demothenes of TORN does a good job of gathering up what we know -- or what we think we know -- about the third film.

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2014/06 ... ve-armies/
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Post by Smaug's voice »

I hope that those are not Thorin's final lines. The book version is just so much better.
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Post by Smaug's voice »

No trailer news yet? I had heard that the release will be very very soon before I left.

And here's a site which states the trailer will come out on 20 July

http://www.ecumenicalnews.com/article/t ... y-20-25195

No support however.
So it's probably a rumor. (BOFA seems to be full of them)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Smaug's voice wrote:I hope that those are not Thorin's final lines. The book version is just so much better.
I rather strongly disagree with this. Thorin's final lines are perfect in the book, but it would not make much sense in the context of the film. The line that RA quoted retains the spirit of the lines from the book, while making sense in the context of the films. I am thrilled to get confirmation that it is likely to be in.

That Ecumenical News article is a bunch of hooey. In addition to all of the other stuff that they get completely wrong, the trailer "news" is nothing more than a misquoting of TORN.
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Post by Smaug's voice »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Smaug's voice wrote:I hope that those are not Thorin's final lines. The book version is just so much better.
I rather strongly disagree with this. Thorin's final lines are perfect in the book, but it would not make much sense in the context of the film. The line that RA quoted retains the spirit of the lines from the book, while making sense in the context of the films. I am thrilled to get confirmation that it is likely to be in.
I disagree.
If more people valued home above gold the world would be a merrier place.

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
The second quote makes perfect sense in the film since the significance of the Bag-End sequence from a cinematic lens (aside from Bilbo's reluctance) was just to show the dwarves here favoring food and cheer and song, unconcerned (till Thorin arrives) about the hoarded gold.

The decision of Thorin signifies that the dwarves are leaving the comforts of life, happiness, songs to reclaim their gold.

The line doesn't even makes sense to me, I think. Thorin already chose home, as they are on a quest to reclaim their homeland. Not a treasure hunt.

Only "gold" too seems inappropriate as (going with DOS) Thorin seems mainly fascinated by the Arkenstone because of hereditary reasons and because he wants to rule, not a love for treasure. Including food and cheer in fact rectifies this error by showing that earlier Thorin wrongly chose to go with power-play rather than the simpler things of life.
It is simplicity over pride.
Food, cheer and home together signify simplicity which only "home" cannot.
Last edited by Smaug's voice on Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Elentári »

It seems that the scriptwriters, whilst perhaps understandably deeming Tolkien's dialogue too much of a mouthful as written, have reduced the original to what comes across as simply a sound bite, and in the process, ignored key words such as "hoarded" and mis-appropriated the word "home" as a catch-all term. I get V's point about "home" being the theme of TH in the movies, but that word does not represent what Tolkien meant in his original dialogue, as SV elaborates on above.) To me, the revised dialogue misses the point that the simple things in life (food, friends and counting your blessings) should be valued above material goods - regardless of whether you have a roof over your head...

Aside from this, it is somewhat interesting to compare that whilst they have shortened the original in this case, they deemed it necessary to expand on the term "comfort" in the first movie...
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Elentári wrote:Aside from this, it is somewhat interesting to compare that whilst they have shortened the original in this case, they deemed it necessary to expand on the term "comfort" in the first movie...
I had the same thought.
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Post by Dave_LF »

Both changes get the word "home" in there.
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Post by Smaug's voice »

Elentári wrote:Aside from this, it is somewhat interesting to compare that whilst they have shortened the original in this case, they deemed it necessary to expand on the term "comfort" in the first movie...
Same here.
Atleast there wasn't anything lost in there.


And did I say Tolkien's line has perfect rhythm, while PJ's line seems like a "moral of the story" from Aesop's fables? :)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yes, perfect rhythm, for the book, for reading it to yourself, or reading aloud to your children. Not perfect rhythm for a film, or so Jackson has deemed, and he is one of the most rhythmically-sensitive directors that I seen.
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Post by Smaug's voice »

How would one even know if it'll work onscreen or not without trying it?

With good acting I do not think it'll seem like too much words for a death scene at all, imo.
Boromir's death talk was long enough.
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Post by Alatar »

How do we know he didn't try it?
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Post by Smaug's voice »

I didn't say he didn't.
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

The alleged line from the film doesn't make much sense within the context of the films so far. By this point, Thorin has been obsessing over "reclaiming his homeland" the entire time. That obsession, in addition to his obsession for treasure, is a large part of his pride in the film, which contributes to both his moral downfall and severe unintended consequences, such as the destruction of Laketown by an awakened Smaug and instability among the men and elves of the region. This new line could work if a large part of BoFA is devoted to Bilbo (and perhaps Balin) arguing that reclaiming Erebor is enough (and a great achievement), and that they should share the wealth (which is likely to happen), but as Thorin lays dying, it would seem to make sense that he would also question his obsession with reclaiming his ancestral home. Otherwise, Bilbo's "What have we done?" line in DOS seems out of place. Because if "home" is so important in this story, the answer to that question is "Well, you've reclaimed a dwarven homeland, and that's great, no matter the consequences."

I really don't like the decision to focus on "home." It misses the point. The nomadic existence of a lot of dwarves, and of people like the Dúnedain in LOTR, shouldn't be devalued. A wandering life is a powerful strain of the heroic life, and Tolkien was never assaulting that in the Hobbit. He was making a commentary on pride and greed, not the importance of "home," whatever that means. Smacks of schmaltzy Hollywood BS, IMO.
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