The Silmarillion Discussion at The Hall of Fire

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Athrabeth
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Post by Athrabeth »

Sassafras wrote:Ath, :love:
An outside force does not wholly determine his characters’ fates…….they also have a hand in determining their paths, according to their own freely made choices. And yet, in doing so, they fulfill the design of Eru. Go figure.


Refined SQUEEEEE! That's the concept I've been trying to explain since we began reading the Sil. I call it conditional free will.
Well, I'd rather think of it as conditional doom. :P

Note that Arwen makes her choice BEFORE her doom is appointed. :D

But the inner Taoist ;) in me is having difficulty accepting either term. I see more harmony and balance between the two, sort of like "you can't have one without the other", but as you said in your last post, I can't fully grasp the idea.........yet.

Do you think that we'll be able to crack the code by the time ol' Morgoth is thrust through the Door of Night?
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Post by Sassafras »

<I have taken so long to reply :oops: that this will have to be in two parts … I don’t want Voronwë to think he is abandoned!>

These few pages are fraught with foretelling. Again solidifying my sense that the path the Elves will take is already laid out for them.

Ulmo to Turgon:

“Longest of all the realms of the Eldalie shall Gondolin stand against Melkor.

And, a warning … “But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and commeth from the Sea.

Vowonwe wrote:
There is so much to be said about this passage, I will not even attempt to do more then say a few cursory things, and hope that in the course of the discussion more of it will be covered. First of all, it tells us once and for all that the Noldor’s seeming victory over Melkor is illusory, and bound to be reversed. It tells us that the Doom of Mandos will overtake all of the Noldor, though Turgon and his people will be last, and that for all of Melkor’s power, it will be the Noldor themselves that will lead to their own downfall. It even presages the coming of hosts of the Valar in the War of Wrath. But most of all it demonstrates to a level not seen before the knowledge of/influence over the course of the history of Middle-earth that Ulmo has/will have as the main sub-creator of that history (though of course in partnership from afar with Manwë, as symbolized by Thorondor and his people).
How does Ulmo know of these things that have not yet come to pass?

Tolkien, in Letter 131.

On the nature of the Valar:

The Knowledge of the Creation Drama was incomplete: incomplete in each individual ‘god’ and incomplete if all the knowledge of the pantheon were pooled.

And yet, Ulmo urges Turgon to build Gondolin while warning him not to become too attached.
He, Ulmo, has seen the necessity of Turgon’s fortress in the coming wars against Morgoth And he desires to protect the elves. Is Ulmo acting as an independent because of his love for the Eldar? Or is he acting in the capacity of agent for Eru?

The Doom of the Elves is set from within in the music and is fully and completely known by Eru …. For after all, are not the two kindred (Elves and Men) entirely due to themes laid down by Eru? The Valar having no part in their creation and therefore not fully cognizant of the part they are to play.

Where then did Ulmo get his knowledge of the Elven future if not from Eru himself?

Further down the page there is this:


and Turgon sent forth all his people, even to a third part of the Noldor of Fingolfin’s following, and yet a greater host of the Sindar; and they passed away, company by company, secretly, under the shadows of Ered Wethrin, and they came unseen to Gondolin and none knew wither they had gone…..

I find it extraordinary that so great a host could, for all intents and purposes, vanish of off the face of Beleriand … and nothing is said, or done, by any that remain outside the circle of the mountains.

I also find it intriguing that Turgon wrought with his own hands a facsimile of the Two Trees. Even in these younger, vibrant, days, the Elves are ever looking backward into the past … trying to replicate it, and hold back (serial) time. It will take them a great many ages before they can come to terms with their ‘fading’.

Of Galadriel and Melian:

This is a great matter,’ she said, ‘greater indeed than the Noldor themselves understand; for the Light of Aman and the fate of Arda lie locked now in these things, the work of Fëanor, who is gone. They shall not be recovered, I foretell, by any power of the Eldar; and the world shall be broken in battles that are to come, ere they are wrested from Morgoth. See now! Fëanor they have slain, and many another, as I guess; but first of all the deaths they have brought and yet shall bring was Finwë your friend.

Ah, The Silmarils. The entire fate and fortune of a people turns upon the jewels. Primeval jewels in Tolkien’s words . Primeval, I posit by existing in Eru’s thought before there was life. I return to a supposition I made in a previous post … there is something ‘fey’ in the quality of the light … not malign but yet something entirely dangerous … some aspect that should NOT have been imprisoned … something that cannot be contained without alteration. By alteration, I mean, the almost addictive effect the jewels have upon Fëanor, his sons, his people the Noldor. The light of the Trees is jealously guarded by the Valar, (they only allow the illumination of Valinor) that light seems to have induced a bliss within all who came within its radius … it is pure light, pure radience and while it seems to have created a sort of longing for continuence, it did not corrupt …. perhaps because, the Trees are the natural vehicle for it, while the Silmarils, on the other hand, do corrupt.

Almost like the Ring … each to his own measure!
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Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Post by Sassafras »

A small osgiliation of sorts:

.....but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: ‘An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit..’

But it is said that no until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.
....

How extraordinary is Tolkien’s language! In a few simple words he is able to penetrate and lay bare the utter poignancy of “and she went not with him into exile”
I am reminded of Findrod’s gentle speech with Andreth in the Athrabeth. Of how well he understands and empathizes with her bitterness because he well knows the exquisite lingering pain of love bereft … and yet he is ever kind, even in his parting words “Whither you may go may you find light. Await us there -- my brother, and me.”

{{{{sw00n}}}}
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Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Post by Athrabeth »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:Chapter 14: Of Beleriand and Its Realms

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nuf sed.
Not quite, my friend. 8)

I love maps. :love: I'm one of those strange people who actually chose Geography 12 as an elective in high school. :help:

When I received the long-awaited Silmarillion in 1977, it was the map of Beleriand that caught and held my attention first. It became such an essential part of my reading, that I actually detached it from its bonds at the back of the book so that I could spread it out before me as I was reading. It always frustrated me no end that the maps of my paperback versions of LOTR were so difficult to access, and my first copies became terribly mangled what with all that page turning to check something on the geography of the tale. For me, one of the greatest delights of opening the first edition of Unfinished Tales was finding that wonderful fold-out map of Middle-earth at the back. Needless to say, it too was removed for reference purposes. Both maps are now framed and hanging in my son's room. I think he loves them almost as much as I do. The only time they are taken down is when I bring them to school when I'm working on mapping with my class. There's just something about the maps of "the Tolkiens" that inspires kids like practically no other. They're fascinated by them.

And you know what? I just finished reading "Of Beleriand and its Realms", a chapter I normally just skip or skim through with a kind of "been there, done that" attitude that I've never felt for the rest of the Sil. I mean, how many times can you read a navigation guide, right?

BUT, there are some great passages in this chapter! :shock:

I don't think it ever struck me before that Tolkien refers to the Rivers Sirion and Gelion in the masculine: "Gelion was a great river; and he rose in two sources and had at first two branches......From the meeting of his arms he flowed south for forty leagues before he found his his tributaries; and before he found the sea he was twice as long as Sirion." With this reading, I really noticed how this anthropomorphizing conjurs a distinctly different and far more powerful perception of the rivers than would be triggered by the more commonly used neutral, "it".

It's difficult to explain, but it's something like a thought that is formed of both physical and symbolic imagery at the same time: a river that is both a natural and a living force on his long journey to the sea.

I also noticed this passage for (probably) the first time: "Upon the cape west of Eglarest Finrod raised the tower of Barad Nimras to watch the western sea, though needlessly, as it proved; for at no time ever did Morgoth essay to build ships or to make war by sea. Water all his servants shunned, and to the sea none would willingly go nigh, save in dire need."

The idea that the servants of Morgoth were repelled by water reminds me of the reaction of the Nazgûl at the Fords of Bruinen. The idea of water carrying both an echo of the First Music and the presence of Ulmo's residual power had never come to mind before when considering why they seemed to wimp out at the edge of the river. And it seems fitting that the sea, whose waters touch upon Tol Eressëa and Aman, would waver the resolve of those who serve a Master that fears and loathes the "sighs and murmurs" of waves upon the shore, speaking ever of the Powers of the West.

Finally, I've been drawn to this passage: "In Ossiriand dwelt the Green-elves, in the protection of their rivers, for after Sirion Ulmo loved Gelion above all the waters of the western world. The woodcraft of the Elves of Ossiriand was such that a stranger might pass through their land from end to end and see none of them. They were clas in green in spring and summer, and the sound of their singing could be hear even across the water of Gelion; wherefore the Noldor named that country Lindon, the land of music..."

As I've said before, while the Noldor are indeed splendid and terrible, and the creators of many wonders in Middle-earth, I find the Green-elves, or perhaps the idea of the Green-elves immensely appealing. It seems to me that they would have no problem understanding why Gelion is referred to as "he" - that they would understand the deep mystery of living water and earth as part of the very stuff from which they are made.
A tale of the Green-elves wouldn't be as grand as that of the Noldor........but it would be a very delicate and beautiful thing, I imagine.
Sassy wrote:How extraordinary is Tolkien’s language! In a few simple words he is able to penetrate and lay bare the utter poignancy of “and she went not with him into exile”
I am reminded of Findrod’s gentle speech with Andreth in the Athrabeth. Of how well he understands and empathizes with her bitterness because he well knows the exquisite lingering pain of love bereft … and yet he is ever kind, even in his parting words “Whither you may go may you find light. Await us there -- my brother, and me.”
Sass, it is Tolkien's language that I think I hold dearest of all the things I love about his writings. I often read through certain passages and chapters of his works just for the sheer delight of wrapping myself in his words.

<shamelessly joins Sassy in her Finrod {{{sw000n}}}>

:love:

Sorry for backtracking, everyone, but I just had to get this post "done with" before catching up to Voronwë's summary. A late night (very late) bit of closure on some scattered thoughts too long unfinished.

More later..............as usual. :hug:
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Not quite, my friend.
I stand correct. Gratefully so. :love:

<Joins Sass and Ath in sw00ning for Tolkien's language and for Finrod the fair-hearted>
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Post by MithLuin »

Hmmm, quite a bit of Finrod-swooning going on in here....
So, I could not resist....

'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.’

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But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

:love:

Fate and free will do intertwine. They are not mutually exclusive. Eru is a Storyteller (among other things), and thus the history of Arda follows his plan - even if the individual 'characters' do have wills apart from His [cf Aulë and the dwarves]. Men are different from Elves in the sense that they can throw bigger wrenches into the works ;).


Ulmo is wise - in some ways, wiser than Manwë. Manwë knows the most of the heart and mind of Ilúvatar, of course, but Manwë does not always understand other creatures - he fails to comprehend his brother Melkor's fall, and is (I think) often amazed by elves and men.

Ulmo, on the other hand, understands evil all too well. He loves elves (and later Men) dearly, and this love grants him (I think) a better understanding. [Aside - Who can understand Tolkien's work without first loving it ?] All of the Valar (not counting Morgoth, perhaps) knew that the Noldor's rebellion was doomed to failure from the beginning. But whence came this knowledge? Could they 'see' the future, and the eventual fall? (I think not) Rather, they knew it was ill-conceived, and would, perforce, run an evil course. That, and how could the elves defeat a Vala, as Morgoth truly was?

Much of Ulmo's wisdom is in the same vein. He knows that the Noldor will need better defences for their long war, and hence can see the need for Gondolin. Yet, he also knows that even a fastness (such as Gondolin) will not protect them forever, and so they must be ready to abandon it, eventually. He knows the risk of treachery, and that (eventually) Morgoth will find a way to exploit it. This wisdom does not require supernatural foresight, merely planning. Of course, Ulmo has both ;).

His specific knowledge of Tuor is most interesting, obviously. While the Ainur did not compose the Music that resulted in the Children, they did play it. Ulmo retained a very good memory of that Music (as the properties of water show), and I think, he also understood it better than some of the others. He didn't know everything of course, but I think he was able to perceive Tuor. And once Tuor came on the scene, he was able to take a direct role in bringing about his own prophecy - after all, it was he who led Tuor to Nevrast!

The role of Eru in the Silmarillion is difficult to perceive. It is much easier to see the Valar as his agents, bringing about his 'interventions' - and Ulmo is the most active of these. So, his advice to Turgon is not unlike Gandalf's conversation with Frodo about being 'meant' to find the Ring.


Back to Finrod ;). His foresight is interesting, and very 'elvish'. I love the foresight that runs through Tolkien's work. It always strikes me as that flash of insight, coming at a critical juncture, that illuminates a piece of the future like a lightning bolt in a dark landscape. It is almost always about something that touches the person closely. Aragorn telling Gandalf to beware Moria, or telling Éomer that they will meet again 'though all the forces of Mordor stand between' them....or telling Elrond that his children must choose 'soon.' This (to me) helps set Aragorn apart from other men - though of course these flashes of wisdom do not always come when he needs them! He is in doubt about many things.

While a certain amount of foresight seems to be within the nature of elves, these flashes also have 'gift' stamped on them. Something that is given to them, that they cannot call up on their own. Perhaps I am wrong - perhaps elves can 'practice' this foresight. So, as I see it, it is 'natural' for elves to have some insight into (and foresight of) events that touch them closely - the nature of their children (when choosing a mother-name), love-at-first-sight determining choice of spouse, a foreknowledge (sometimes) of when death is approaching, etc. Finrod 'knows' that he will soon lose his brother in battle. Fëanor 'knows' that his sons will never recover the Silmarils as he dies. Idril 'knows' to remain unwed until she meets Tuor (perhaps), but also 'knows' to build a tunnel for escape (without telling Maeglin). But these flashes of insight (though natural and common) are not guaranteed or controlled by the elf. They are, rather, given by Eru (I think).

Their wisdom (or lack thereof) comes in how they use this knowledge. Fëanor is rash, not wise - though no fool, by any stretch. Finrod, on the other hand, has careful wisdom. Perhaps it is because he 'accepts' his fate, and tries to work within it, rather than rebel against it. But his foresight is not precise. He knows he must stay free to swear an oath - but he does not know to whom or over what. Even when he makes the Oath to Barahir, he may not realize that this oath is the one that will lead him into darkness. Foreseeing that his kingdom will not endure is, again, not specific. He in fact does leave the crown to Orodreth after his death, and the kingdom lasts a little longer. But the ultimate devastation of Nargothrond is, perhaps, inevitable (and he knows this). So, unlike Turgon, he does not try to make a lasting realm, but merely a temporary fortress.

The 'wisest of the Noldor' uses his wisdom to guide his decisions, and thus is able to accomplish more than someone 'foolish'. But whether he is fulfilling his fate or using his own will to determine his destiny is really an artificial question. It's both - the two interact dynamically.

Yikes - I shouldn't have jumped into this fate/free will conversation so late in the game. Sorry for all the rambling.

Ath - I'd love to discuss the Sea :)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yikes - I shouldn't have jumped into this fate/free will conversation so late in the game.
Of course you should have, Mith. It is was fated. :upsidedown:

I'll be back once I've had time to think about and digest your wonderful post.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

That's a lovely picture of Finrod, Mith, and very much the way that I imagine him. :love:
Fate and free will do intertwine. They are not mutually exclusive. Eru is a Storyteller (among other things), and thus the history of Arda follows his plan - even if the individual 'characters' do have wills apart from His [cf Aulë and the dwarves].


As I've said before, very much like a play in which the actors have some room to improvise, but still must inevitably follow the general plot line.
Ulmo is wise - in some ways, wiser than Manwë. Manwë knows the most of the heart and mind of Ilúvatar, of course, but Manwë does not always understand other creatures - he fails to comprehend his brother Melkor's fall, and is (I think) often amazed by elves and men.

Ulmo, on the other hand, understands evil all too well. He loves elves (and later Men) dearly, and this love grants him (I think) a better understanding.


I would not say that Ulmo is wiser then Manwë, just that his wisdom takes a different form. Manwë is more remote; he lives in the clouds (both figuratively and literally). Ulmo is more down to earth, living in the waters he is better connected to the living things of Middle-earth. But I would not say that he loves Elves and Men more then Manwë does, just in a different way. Together, they complement each other as the main instruments in actualizing Eru's plan.
His specific knowledge of Tuor is most interesting, obviously. While the Ainur did not compose the Music that resulted in the Children, they did play it. Ulmo retained a very good memory of that Music (as the properties of water show), and I think, he also understood it better than some of the others. He didn't know everything of course, but I think he was able to perceive Tuor. And once Tuor came on the scene, he was able to take a direct role in bringing about his own prophecy - after all, it was he who led Tuor to Nevrast!
Yes, this is very much what I had in mind when I asked the question. This is very good example of fate and free will intertwining. Tolkien once described the four stages of creation as (1) the creation of the Ainur; (2) the playing of the Music; (3) the vision that resulted from the Music; and (4) the actual playing out of the history of Eä. And at each stage, changes could be introduced. Ulmo knew much (but not all) of the Music and the Vision. But he still played a role in seeing how the reality actually played out. But the individual Elves and Men also played a role in how that reality played out; they retained free will, though on a smaller scale then the Valar. I'll talk more about this when we actually get to Tuor.
But these flashes of insight (though natural and common) are not guaranteed or controlled by the elf. They are, rather, given by Eru (I think).
They are. But as you yourself point out, the individual is still has the ability to exercise free will in how they respond to these gifts. Both Elves and Men.
Ath - I'd love to discuss the Sea :)
Me too.

(Sassy, I'm still waiting for the second part of your response before I reply. And probably for Ath's response as well :upsidedown:)
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Post by Athrabeth »

<Athrabeth enters the discussion again (at long last), tossing several big fluffy cushions she has nabbed from the Parlour at Bag End, just in case there's any more Finrod sw000ning to be done......

I'm so sorry that it's taken much too long to add my thoughts to this chapter, everyone.......I'm afraid I don't have a whole lot to contribute, but I've had some fun considering Ulmo's role in the tale.
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote: ...this chapter is full of portents of the great and terrible events to come. It also vividly illustrates the role that Ulmo, Lord of Waters, plays in events of Middle-earth: the most active ‘sub-creator’ of all the Valar; and yet in the end isn’t even he simply fulfilling the destiny that has its uttermost source in Eru?
’Now thou shalt go at last to Gondolin, Turgon; and I will maintain my power in the Vale of Sirion, and in all the waters therein, so that none shall mark thy going, nor shall any find there the hidden entrance against thy will. Longest of all the realms of the Eldalië shall Gondolin stand against Melkor. But love not too well the work of they hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.’

And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove. ‘Thus it may come to pass,’ he said, ‘that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason awake within they walls. Then they shall be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh indeed, then even from Nevrast one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men. Leave therefore in this house arms and a sword, that in years to come he may find them, and thus shalt though know him, and not be deceived.’ And Ulmo declared to Turgon of what kind and stature should be the helm and mail and sword that he left behind.
Ulmo is teh kewl! 8)

I agree, Voronwë, that Ulmo is by far the "most active sub-creator" of all of the Valar. I've been wondering about this "pro-active drive" that seems to be inherent in his character, as well as the especially intimate affinity he has towards the Children of Ilúvatar, and my musings led me back to the HoME volume, "The Shaping of Middle-Earth", and more specifically to the chapter, "The Ambarkanta" or "Shape of the World" (like I said before, I do seem to be drawn to the maps and geographical/cosmological representations that Tolkien left behind, and these few pages are especially fascinating to me).
Tolkien wrote:Within these walls the Earth is globed: above, below, and upon all sides is Vaiya, the Enfolding Ocean. But this is more like to sea below the Earth and more like to air above the Earth. In Vaiya below the Earth dwells Ulmo.
<snip>
Now the land of Valinor extends almost to Vaiya, which is most narrow in the West and East of the World, but deepest in the North and South. The Western shores of Valinor are therefore not far from the Walls of the World. Yet there is a chasm which sunders Valinor from Vaiya, and it is filled with Ilmen, and by this way one may come from Ilmen above the earth to the lower regions, and to the Earthroots, and the caves and grottoes that are at the foundations of the lands and seas. There is Ulmo's abiding-place. Thence are derived the waters of Middle-earth. For these waters are compounded of Ilmen and Vaiya and Ambar (which is Earth), since Ulmo blends Ilmen and Vaiya and sends them up through the veins of the World to cleanse and refresh the seas and rivers, the lakes and the fountains of Earth. And running water thus possesses the memory of the deeps and the heights, and holds somewhat of the wisdom and music of Ulmo, and of the light of the luminaries of heaven.
Image

(this pic made possible by the heroic efforts of a particularly shiny and dangerous maverick :love: )

I love this thought (and image) of the "veins" of Arda carrying the life-blood of purified waters upwards from Ulmo's abiding place. And if the running waters can carry the wisdom and music of Ulmo upwards, it seems to follow that they would also carry the "stories" of Elves and Men - their hopes and fears, their loves and betrayals, their longings and desires, back to Ulmo. It's like he is attuned to the very the heartbeat of the World. The words of Gandalf in "The White Rider" come to mind when I think of Ulmo listening, always listening, to the never-ending pulse of Arda and those that walk upon its lands and sigh and sing beside its waters:

Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened stone.

Manwë and Varda may stand atop Oiolossë to "see and hear" more clearly than all others in Aman the unfolding of events in Middle-earth, but it's old Ulmo that has the most direct and immediate connection to those events, I feel. He is not sundered from the "eastern lands" beyond the Sea like his brethren after the death of the Two Trees.....the very nature of his sub-creative power (to form and cleanse and renew the waters of Arda) demands this most dynamic relationship with its inhabitants and their environs. While the other Valar remain isolated and insular in their protected realm, Ulmo is getting down and dirty in the everyday workings of Middle-earth. For him, there are no great walls of mountains, or Shadowy Seas and Enchanted Isles muting and dimming the sounds and actions of the Children he loves so much. He, more than any of the Valar, is caught up in the intensity of the "human experience" within Arda, and is drawn into "the unfolding of the tale" that Elves and Men actively take part in creating.
Voronwë wrote:]What can be said of Ulmo's intimate knowledge of the coming of Tuor to Nevrast hundreds of years hence, as shown by his ability to tell Turgon what kind and stature should be the helm and mail and sword to be left behind? Does this show the Lord of the Waters dictating the events that will occur, or simply his knowledge of at least the broad thrust of what must be? What does this say about all our discussions of free will and predestination?
I find it interesting that Ulmo never says that certain events will come to pass, rather he seems to hedge his bets, so to speak:

"Thus it may come to pass...that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end and treason awake within thy walls. Then they shall be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh indeed, then even from Nevrast one shall come to warn thee."

So, does Ulmo have "clear vision" of exactly what will take place and chooses to be a little "coy" about revealing it to Turgon, or is he just applying his wisdom and knowledge about the "cause and effect" of all these separate stones being tossed into the great water of the First Music? Just to be consistent........I vote for the latter!!! :horse:
Voronwë wrote:Once again, Tolkien gives little hints about the events to come. Who are these personages Húrin and Huor who are the only ones to find their way to Gondolin in all the long years (actually we have read the story know that that is not really quite true; that there are several others who find the way)? Surely, a great Doom must be laid upon them? And what is the Year of Lamentation that is spoke of, when Turgon and his host finally come forth again? Surely this is another sign that the bliss and wonder of Gondolin itself is but a temporary respite from the ultimate doom of the Noldor?
These are more examples of the tone of "high myth" rooted in an oral tradition that I love so much about the Sil. It's like the "audience" (the Elves) already know the outcomes of the tale.....nothing, really, is being "given away" because this has been a tale told and retold for millennia. I think I've written about how I saw a performance of the Ramayana performed over several evenings while I was in Delhi many years ago.......a continuing story, being told in the midst of a public garden through words and dance and song , that took hours and hours to unfold. I sometimes like to think of the Sil being performed like that in Aman, under the innumerable stars. :love:

And now, just so all those cushions don't go to waste:

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Finrod by the waters of Sirion. :love:
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Post by MithLuin »

<Swooooooooons> for Finrod :D

I like your thoughts on Ulmo. To add to them, I was reading Morgoth's Ring today, and in one of the version of the Ainulindalë there, it says that Ulmo learned more about music from Ilúvatar than any of the other Ainur (which might explain why water 'retained' the Music better than (say) earth or air or stars). So, is Ulmo just a musician, or does he have a better handle on 'fate' or 'subcreation' than some of the others? I'm not sure....Mandos, as Doomsman, surely gets the 'fate' part. Aulë the Maker seems to get more of the subcreative spark. So, what does Ulmo get from the Music? An understanding, a wisdom, a finger on the pulse of sorrow in Middle Earth?

I find it hard to read the Silmarillion passively anymore. Everytime I do, I get restless, and itch to tell the story myself. Maybe I should draw a picture or something, that might excise my restlessness....

Oh, and I now have Jenny Dolfen's Finrod on my wall!

8)

(<thanks for the cushions!>)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Athrabeth the Effervescent wrote:I love this thought (and image) of the "veins" of Arda carrying the life-blood of purified waters upwards from Ulmo's abiding place. And if the running waters can carry the wisdom and music of Ulmo upwards, it seems to follow that they would also carry the "stories" of Elves and Men - their hopes and fears, their loves and betrayals, their longings and desires, back to Ulmo. It's like he is attuned to the very the heartbeat of the World. ...

...it's old Ulmo that has the most direct and immediate connection to those events, I feel. He is not sundered from the "eastern lands" beyond the Sea like his brethren after the death of the Two Trees.....the very nature of his sub-creative power (to form and cleanse and renew the waters of Arda) demands this most dynamic relationship with its inhabitants and their environs. While the other Valar remain isolated and insular in their protected realm, Ulmo is getting down and dirty in the everyday workings of Middle-earth. For him, there are no great walls of mountains, or Shadowy Seas and Enchanted Isles muting and dimming the sounds and actions of the Children he loves so much. He, more than any of the Valar, is caught up in the intensity of the "human experience" within Arda, and is drawn into "the unfolding of the tale" that Elves and Men actively take part in creating.
:love: Beautifully said, my friend (and there's a big surprise :upsidedown:).
So, does Ulmo have "clear vision" of exactly what will take place and chooses to be a little "coy" about revealing it to Turgon, or is he just applying his wisdom and knowledge about the "cause and effect" of all these separate stones being tossed into the great water of the First Music? Just to be consistent........I vote for the latter!!!
And, of course (just to be consistent) I lean strongly to the former.
Longest of the all the realms of the Eldalië shall Gondolin stand against Melkor. But love not too well the work of the thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.

And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove.
To me, this says that Ulmo knew full well that Gondolin would fall eventually, though last of all the great kingdoms. The fact that he reminds Turgon that he lay under the Doom of Mandos tells me that he knew that treason would awake in Turgon's halls eventually. Ulmo might not know all the details of how it would come about, but he clearly knew that eventually a messenger would reach the Undying Lands and move the Valar to rescue the Children of Eru from Melkor's domination. And I continue to be persuaded most of all by the specifics of Ulmo's knowledge of the coming of Tuor, who as we will see along with Turgon's own daughter provides the counterbalance to the agent of treason that inevitably awakes in Turgon's halls, and more importantly produces the one who will allow the "true hope" of the Noldor to come true.

:love:
These are more examples of the tone of "high myth" rooted in an oral tradition that I love so much about the Sil. It's like the "audience" (the Elves) already know the outcomes of the tale.....nothing, really, is being "given away" because this has been a tale told and retold for millennia.
Yes, and I think that is exactly how the Silmarillion was intended to (and should be) appreciated. Not as a piece of literature to be read once or twice and thus be fully appreciated, but rather as a tradition to be soaked into one's very consciousness over the course of many repeated readings and long thought, and discourse among souls that are at the same time both like-minded and diverse.

:love:
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Post by Athrabeth »

<fluffs up cushions while considering Mith's post>

It's interesting, isn't it, how we can keep getting these little flashes of personal insight into Tolkien's central themes through a discussion such as this! Sometimes, a pattern or a parallel or a connection, long "felt" but never quite grasped will just suddenly jump out at me as the layers of others' ideas and understandings wrap themselves around my own. :love:
Mith wrote:...Ulmo learned more about music from Ilúvatar than any of the other Ainur (which might explain why water 'retained' the Music better than (say) earth or air or stars)
<snip>
So, what does Ulmo get from the Music? An understanding, a wisdom, a finger on the pulse of sorrow in Middle Earth?
Considering what I think I know about Tolkien's thematic use of music and song, I'd say that's precisely what Ulmo gets from the Music.

The deepest, most powerful "magic" of both the Sil and LOTR can always found, it seems, in water, music and light. In the quote from "The Ambarkanta" that I included in my last post, Tolkien writes that Ulmo "blends Ilmen and Vaiya" to create the waters he sends upwards through the veins of the earth. Vaiya, of course, is "The Enfolding Ocean" that protects and separates Arda from the Void, with the characteristics of an astral sea comprised of something akin to both water and air :suspicious: . Ilmen is described as "The Place of Light"...."that is clear and pure being pervaded by light though it gives no light" and is the home of the stars and Moon and Sun.

Which brings me to one of my occasional "Aha!" moments. 8) That last sentence in the passage I quoted really does say it all: "And running water thus possesses the memory of the deeps and the heights, and holds somewhat of the wisdom and music of Ulmo, and of the light of the luminaries of heaven."......music and light blending with water, actually becoming part of its essence, wise with memories that reach back to the very beginning of Time and, I would venture, forward to Time's ending. Deep and powerful magic indeed.
Voronwë the Seer wrote:To me, this says that Ulmo knew full well that Gondolin would fall eventually, though last of all the great kingdoms. The fact that he reminds Turgon that he lay under the Doom of Mandos tells me that he knew that treason would awake in Turgon's halls eventually.
Ulmo might not know all the details of how it would come about, but he clearly knew that eventually a messenger would reach the Undying Lands and move the Valar to rescue the Children of Eru from Melkor's domination. And I continue to be persuaded most of all by the specifics of Ulmo's knowledge of the coming of Tuor, who as we will see along with Turgon's own daughter provides the counterbalance to the agent of treason that inevitably awakes in Turgon's halls, and more importantly produces the one who will allow the "true hope" of the Noldor to come true.
Of course, my dear friend, we are really not that far removed from the other's concept of these matters of "what was, what is, and what will be" :hug: . If viewed in "linear time" I concur that these events must be seen as sequential........and Arda and all its inhabitants (including the Valar) are bound within Time, and so must comply with its rules and realities. But the First Music, well, that was created outside of Time. All that it contained could not be held within Arda, and it falls first on the Valar, and later to both Elves and Men to help make the infinite - the transcendent - finite and attainable through their own unique interpretations and expectations and "memories", and their ability to make these things "be". I'm not saying that this springs separate and unconnected from the Music or "doom", or that it's all just a matter of serendipity (although I believe that there is this element to certain events within the tale). Ulmo, more than any of the Valar, has the ways and means to influence the unfolding of the story through his more intimate connections with its characters. Of course he has a great measure of foresight as one of the original Ainur who made the Music, and saw the vision, and chose to enter into Time to begin the great works of Arda realized. It is Ulmo that chooses Turgon and Finrod, and later Tuor and Voronwë :love: , not Eru. Were such things revealed directly to him through the Music, or as I put forward in my other post, were they the natural outcomes of all his wisdom and knowledge (or foreknowledge). I keep returning these days to a mental image of these events as stones dropped into the vast, spreading waters of the tale, sending out waves of consequence that seem ever to seek meeting and blending, rebounding and reflecting with other waves, both great and small, from other places and times. It is like an immensely complex dance of multitudinous interactions, in which it can be difficult (at least for me) to determine what is cause and what is effect. :upsidedown:
Yes, and I think that is exactly how the Silmarillion was intended to (and should be) appreciated. Not as a piece of literature to be read once or twice and thus be fully appreciated, but rather as a tradition to be soaked into one's very consciousness over the course of many repeated readings and long thought, and discourse among souls that are at the same time both like-minded and diverse.
:hug: :horse: :halo:

I've become very interested by the degree to which Tuor is "manipulated" by Ulmo.......almost a parallel, in many ways, to how Túrin's path is directed by Morgoth and his curse. Both have their free will quite extraordinarily tampered with, don't they?..... and both will play pivotal (yet very different) roles in the downfall of those two great realms that Ulmo himself inspired -Gondolin and Nargothrond........hmmmmmmm.
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Post by Alatar »

I really, really dislike the Flat Earth and other "Shaping of the World" concepts. I know it's intended to be a Mythology, but it feels incredibly contrived to me. I love the fact that its glossed over in the Silmarillion, because it doesn't take me out of the story the way this does. I can accept the vagueness of the Sun and Moon being dragged beneath the Earth. I can accept the bending of the world so that the straight road leads out of Arda.

I just can't accept images like the one Ath posted.
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Post by MithLuin »

Alatar, I think JRRT agreed with you in his later years, and tried to do something about it ;). Mythology works better when we don't get all the nitty-gritty details. I can accept Lúthien using the wolf-fell to 'transform' Beren into a wolf. I really can't swallow her sewing him up in a wolf-suit and teaching him how to walk like a wolf (a la Lost Tales) ;).
Ath wrote:I've become very interested by the degree to which Tuor is "manipulated" by Ulmo.......almost a parallel, in many ways, to how Túrin's path is directed by Morgoth and his curse. Both have their free will quite extraordinarily tampered with, don't they?..... and both will play pivotal (yet very different) roles in the downfall of those two great realms that Ulmo himself inspired -Gondolin and Nargothrond........hmmmmmmm.
This is just scary. That was my response to your post, while reading through some material on Gondolin. :shock: (Your first post, I mean, from April 10) People keep asking if Ulmo 'foresaw' Tuor...when really, he 'chose' Tuor, so it is a bit of a self-fullfilling prophecy. I was thinking about the directions for the armor, and realized - it was made for a tall man. Túrin was tall. Ulmo could have chosen Túrin, and still fulfilled the prophecy. He could have guided Túrin to Nevrast....but maybe not. Túrin would not have responded to Ulmo's promptings the way his cousin did.

The sea-longing in Tolkien's work has a bit of the mystical to it. You see these people reacting to dreams and nudges, and (I anyway) am reminded of saints with fire in their souls. Ulmo guides Tuor, in all that he wants him to do - and thus Tuor is an 'instrument' of Ulmo's. But at the same time....Tuor must respond. Ulmo's prophecy would not come to pass if Tuor refused to cooperate.

Or at least, would not have come to pass in that way. Ulmo would have needed to choose a different tool.

Ulmo, in his wisdom, knew that the Noldor (under Turgon) would love and trust their hidden city, and would be loathe to leave it. Which would be fine - as long as it was safe. But he also knew of the 'long defeat' ahead of the Noldor. "True hope lies in the West" is not a platitude - it is a truth at the core of Middle Earth. If Turgon trusts his own wisdom, he will fail - he must trust the Valar. Ulmo believes Mandos. Turgon does not (fully).

But Ulmo does not forsee everything. He does not know how exactly the curse that Mandos laid on the Noldor will play out in Gondolin. He suspects treachery, but he does not know for certain that it will occur (or when, or whom). For instance, he does not tell Turgon "guard your sister". He merely warns Turgon that the safety is not permanent, and that it is a stop-gap measure (in the grand scheme of things).

Most telling that "Ulmo doesn't know everything" is his decision to plea on behalf of the Noldor to the Valar (after the fall of Gondolin). Manwë did not respond to Ulmo's request. Now, you could say that Ulmo's failed request was a political move, to soften the Valar up for Eärendil - but I highly doubt it. Ulmo truly didn't know that Eärendil's voyage to Valinor was the key to setting the Valar in motion. He knew Eärendil was important (as did Huor, with the eyes of death), but did he know exactly why? I think not.

Ulmo is my favorite Vala. I love him dearly. I think he is wise and understanding. And he is Alone, so he is (in many ways) the counterpart to Morgoth. But he didn't foresee everything. He merely dashes false hopes, because he knows what true hope is.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I just wanted to post to say how much I am enjoying this discussion.

And to say that yesterday I picked up the Silmarillion for the eighth or ninth time, started reading—and instead of bouncing off and struggling to follow it, I'm savoring it. The imagery is so vivid, the emotion so real—this time!

I don't know what's changed or why I am suddenly able to read it and appreciate it. But maybe I'll finally get in here with a real post sometime. :)
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

That's great, Prim! I'm really happy to hear it. :)
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Post by Alatar »

Prim, did the Martin Shaw reading help any?
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I couldn't get it onto my iPod! :x

Or rather, the order in which it got imported was completely scrambled.

I have listened to some of it on my computer. I'll probably listen to more of it now, especially if I find myself bogging down, and I'm sure it will help!
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Athrabeth »

Chapter 16: Of Maeglin

One of the really wonderful things about having to reread a chapter of the Sil with the express purpose of considering one’s own perspectives on the narrative so that they can (hopefully) be articulated, is that it so often reveals details and nuances never before appreciated. This is certainly true of this chapter for me. I always knew that it was a dark tale, sad and unsettling (kind of creepy, really). But I had never really considered the depth of tragedy and the terrible scope of consequence that marks what surely must be one of the most dysfunctional families found in any of Tolkien’s writings.

From the very first passages introducing Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, there is a sense of fierce pride and a kind of concealed, simmering desperation to her character. In some ways, she reminds me of Éowyn: a noblewoman endowed with great strength and intelligence, who yearns for independence from the confines of her courtly station. They even share the same title - "The White Lady" of their respective kingdoms. In other ways, the comparison doesn’t quite hold up, as it becomes apparent that Turgon’s word as lord of Gondolin, and the decree of isolation that all his subjects, male and female, must obey, can be openly and successfully challenged by his tenacious and willful sister. Her decision not to ride to Hithlum to stay with Fingon, her brother, but instead to ride south to the realm of her cousins and friends, Curufin and Celegorm, is like the impetuous decision of a rebellious teenager, asserting her independence regardless of the advice of those “wiser in the ways of the world”.

Once again, the far-reaching consequences of Fëanor’s unforgiveable actions at Alqualondë force a direction in the story. Rather than coming safely to Himlad through Doriath, Aredhel and her companions are forced to brave the treacherous shadows of Ungoliant’s making in Nan Dungortheb, so that her three escorts are forced to return to Gondolin without her, while she, through her own courage and resourcefulness, finds the way to Himlad. There, she awaits the return of her cousins, who have gone “riding with Caranthir” (I love the allusion to the Elvish perception of time that has them gone on this little foray for the better part of a year!) Once again, Aredhel becomes restless, and begins “seeking for new paths and untrodden glades”, until she finds herself in the great wood of Nan Elmoth.

It is at this point of the story that some of those new thoughts (or at least, more consciously considered thoughts) entered into my reading. Firstly, I had never really “clued in” to how similar the Dark Elf, Eöl, was to Aredhel in his “backstory”. He too, felt ”restless and ill at ease” when abiding within the boundaries of Doriath, no matter how beautiful and blessed that land may have been; and he too fled from the confinement of a protected and hidden realm. I think that in a subtle way, Tolkien was pointing to the duality of these guarded Elvish kingdoms: that in keeping the evils and perils of the surrounding world out, they also serve to force their inhabitants to remain in. It is a “fortress existence”, a siege mentality that cannot help but feed a shadow that quietly gnaws at the bliss and beauty of the culture within. I believe Lothlórien is also touched by this dilemma, but I think that may well be the topic of another discussion. ;)

Something else that never really “hit” me before is that the meeting of Aredhel and Eöl takes place in the Nan Elmoth, where Melian and Thingol first met, and, in a rather perverse way, parallels that meeting. Aredhel is drawn deeper and deeper into the great wood by the “enchantments” of Eöl, much like Thingol was drawn to Melian, but there is no “magic” timeless love that is kindled at their first touch; there seems to be no love at all, really. For Eöl, it is “desire” that is roused, and for Aredhel…….well, this is where things get a little unsettling. Tolkien writes that she was not “wholly unwilling” in her union with the Dark Elf, but within the greater tale that contains so many great and noble love stories, this seems somehow "not as it should be" between two of the Eldar. Aredhel, although given somewhat more independence to “fare alone as she would”, basically trades in the “bonds” that she felt in Gondolin for the new, and far more sinister bonds of a loveless marriage and a life doomed to darkness and twilight.

The result of this dysfunctional union between “The White Lady” and “The Dark Elf” is, of course, Maeglin, the main subject of this chapter, and one of the most pivotal characters in the histories of the Noldor. It strikes me as so sad that his “mother-name” of “Lómien (Child of the Twilight) can only be spoken in Aredhel’s heart, as it is in the “forbidden tongue” of the Noldor. It’s also interesting to consider that this, as the mother’s choice, would be a “name of insight”, for although it seems to merely represent the circumstances of his birth and rearing in the physical world, it can also be seen as describing his fate: first caught between the widely differing “worldviews” of his parents, and later (as will be seen) caught between his own unrequited love and heart’s desire, and the laws and customs of his people. I love the passage that recounts Eól’s naming of his son (which occurs a full twelve years after his birth):

Then he called him Maeglin, which is Sharp Glance, for he perceived that the eyes of his son were more piercing than his own, and his thought could read the secrets of hearts beyond the mist of words.

*pauses to sw00n for Tolkien’s masterful use of language* :love:

Maeglin seems to naturally inherit a restless and questing spirit from both his parents. It is said that he has an eagerness to learn the craft lore of the Dwarves (as did his father before him). This trait to be driven by the “making of things” (especially without successfully balancing the "art" of creation with the "science" of production) always seems to be marked as something of a double-edged sword by Tolkien, considering the ultimate fates of Saruman, and the Elves of Eregion, and perhaps even Fëanor himself. But upon this reading, I also notice that Tolkien writes:

His words were few save in matters that touched him near, and then his voice had a power to move those that heard him and to overthrow those that withstood him.

Whoa……now doesn’t that sound an awful lot like Fëanor? :shock:

Though he resembles his father in “mood and mind” and inherits from him the gift of metalcraft, Maeglin “loved his mother the better”, and is transfixed by her tales of the glory and valour of their shared kin in both Eldamar and Middle-earth. Up until now I always considered the following passage as indicative of Maeglin’s darker designs:

All these things he laid to heart, but most of all that which he heard of Turgon, and that he had no heir; for Elenwë his wife perished in the crossing of the Helcaraxë, and his daughter Idril Celebrindal was his only child.

Now, I’m not so sure that this is actually a conscious thought on Maeglin’s part to find a way to insinuate himself into a position of power. Perhaps it’s more a yearning to belong; to escape from his life of isolation and find a connection and a place with “his people”. Either interpretation is plausible, I believe.

There seems to me something inherently unpleasant in the way Tolkien describes how Maeglin “bides his time”, hoping “to wheedle the secret” of Gondolin’s location from his mother, or “perhaps to read her unguarded mind”, but maybe it is the sheer desperation to get away from the suffocating environment he is forced to endure that puts these dark desires in his heart. I’m finding Maeglin to be a far more sympathetic character with this reading, and I’m having some interesting “second thoughts” about his motives.

Whatever his motivations, Maeglin finally convinces his mother to flee from Nan Elmoth and Eöl’s restrictive authoritarianism, with the stirring words:

”What hope is there in this wood for you or for me? Here we are in bondage, and no profit shall I find here; for I have learned all that my father has to teach, or that the Naugrim will reveal to me. Shall we not seek for Gondolin? You shall be my guide, and I will be your guard!”

Once again, Fëanor comes to mind, and his powerful words to the Noldor before their departure from Aman.

In a “parting shot” at Eöl, Aredhel tells her servants that she and her son have gone to seek the sons of Fëanor, something that he has expressly forbidden her from doing because of his deep dislike and distrust of the Noldor. Riding in fury after them, Eöl encounters Curufin, and I think the resulting exchange between these two darkly menacing characters is an absolutely wonderful rendering of simmering hatred, barely contained within the formalities of carefully chosen words.

Then Eöl mounted his horse, saying: It is good, Lord Curufin, to find a kinsman thus kindly at need. I will remember it when I return.” (ouch!)
Then Curufin looked darkly upon Eöl. ”Do not flaunt the title of your wife before me,” he said. “For those who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them without gift or leave do not gain kinship with their kin. I have given you leave to go. Take it, and be gone.” (double ouch!)

Eöl continues his pursuit of Aredhel and Maeglin and sees them take the hidden path to the first Gate of Gondolin. Inside, both mother and son are joyously received by Turgon, who, unlike Curufin, warmly extends the hand of kinship to his sister-son. But poor Maeglin, above all the splendours of Gondolin, espies Idril, and falls immediately and hopelessly in love with her. Poor Maeglin: I never thought I would write those words. But after his life of darkness, is it any wonder that this “golden” child of the Vanyar and Noldor would seem to him “as the sun from which all the King’s hall drew its light”?

When Eöl is brought before Turgon, once again the hand of friendship and kinship is offered, but the Dark Elf utterly rejects the authority of Lord of Gondolin. He is willing to surrender his claim upon Aredhel, but not upon Maeglin, and commands his son to leave “the house of his enemies and the slayers of his kin”.

But Maeglin answered nothing.

Four simple words, but my goodness, they do speak volumes, don’t they?

Turgon then answers Eöl’s defiance with words that actually remind me a little of Boromir’s at the Council of Elrond:

By the swords of the Noldor alone are your sunless woods defended. Your freedom to wander there wild you owe to my kin; and but for them long since you would have laboured in thraldom in the pits of Angband.

Turgon finishes his speech with no uncertainty at all regarding the fate that Eöl must now accept for both himself and his son: to dwell in Gondolin for the rest of their lives, so that the secret realm may not be endangered by their knowledge of its location. But Eöl has come prepared for the worst, and knowing that his life is now forfeit (for he would never accept such terms), he attempts to take his son’s life as well, refusing to lose his absolute claim on Maeglin as solely “his own”, like a piece of property, really. Aredhel throws herself in the path of the poisoned dart that has been aimed at her son and is mortally wounded, and Eöl is subdued in his rage and is bound and led away:

But Maeglin looking upon his father was silent :(

Because of his murderous act, Eöl is sentenced to death, cast down from the sheer walls of the city to be broken upon the rocks below. His final words are a curse upon his son……a curse working within a curse, it would seem.

”So you forsake your father and his kin, ill-gotten son! Here shall you fail of all your hopes, and here may you yet die the same death as I.”

......And Maeglin stood by and said nothing. :(

The chapter ends with a recounting of Maeglin’s rise to greatness among the Gondolindrim. Of how his knowledge of smithcraft and mining helped achieve weapons of strength and keenness that would be needed in the dire days that lay ahead in the war against Morgoth. Of how wise in counsel he became, a careful and wary strategist whose skills in thought were matched by his valour and fearlessness in battle. There is an intriguing line that I never noticed before in the final passage of the chapter that foretells that one only will surpass his greatness in Gondolin:

Thus all seemed well with the fortunes of Maeglin, who had risen to be mighty among the princes of the Noldor, and greatest save one in the most renowned of their realms.

This is followed by the desperately sad truth that he carries secretly in his heart: his love “without hope” for his own cousin, Idril, and the resulting grief that “robbed him of all joy” in spite of all the glory and power he achieves. And Idril, like Maeglin himself, able to read the hearts of others “beyond the mist of words”, perceives this love, and is repulsed by it for "it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him.”

Poor Maeglin: forever alone and without love, carrying the legacy of his parents own “strange and crooked” union, as well as being swept along by the far-reaching waves of bitter consequence that Fëanor set in motion. He carries the doom of Gondolin within him like some kind of dormant virus, waiting to be awakened. What terrible burdens to bear. :cry:
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Wow, Ath, you've made so many connections that I had never thought about before. This is why I love this discussion so much. As well as I thought I knew this work, I am learning just how much more there is know; there are so many different levels that it can be looked at.
Athrabeth wrote:I had never really considered the depth of tragedy and the terrible scope of consequence that marks what surely must be one of the most dysfunctional families found in any of Tolkien’s writings.
Or, indeed, anywhere else. :)
From the very first passages introducing Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, there is a sense of fierce pride and a kind of concealed, simmering desperation to her character. In some ways, she reminds me of Éowyn: a noblewoman endowed with great strength and intelligence, who yearns for independence from the confines of her courtly station. They even share the same title - "The White Lady" of their respective kingdoms.
I have never made that connection before, despite sharing the same title. But now that you mention it (and even with the caveat that you point out) the similarities seem obvious.
Her decision not to ride to Hithlum to stay with Fingon, her brother, but instead to ride south to the realm of her cousins and friends, Curufin and Celegorm, is like the impetuous decision of a rebellious teenager, asserting her independence regardless of the advice of those “wiser in the ways of the world”.
Well said (one would think you might have had some experience in these matters ;)). But it seems to me that Turgon takes just the wrong tone with his willful teenaged, thousands of years old sister.

'... for though Morgoth be yet hemmed in the North there are many perils in Middle-earth of which the Lady knows nothing.'

Turgon's great fault is his pride, and as a result he comes across as awfully condescending to Aredhel. This prideful condescension no doubt contributed to her own willful, rebellious response. Perhaps if he had appealed to her own wisdom and good sense, rather then dismissing her so cavalierly, things might have turned out differently. But perhaps it was Fated to be that way, so that Turgon himself was destined to contribute to the events that inexorably led to his own downfall.
Once again, the far-reaching consequences of Fëanor’s unforgivable actions at Alqualondë force a direction in the story. Rather than coming safely to Himlad through Doriath, Aredhel and her companions are forced to brave the treacherous shadows of Ungoliant’s making in Nan Dungortheb, so that her three escorts are forced to return to Gondolin without her, while she, through her own courage and resourcefulness, finds the way to Himlad.


I see Thingol's stubborn pride rearing its ugly head here as well. Is it really necessary that he be so harsh and unforgiving as to deny the courtesy of allowing passage through his land to a single lady and her escorts?

It is interesting that Tolkien is so matter of fact about Aredhel's ability to cross through Nan Dungortheb. There seems to be some undercurrent that such courage and resourcefulness is not quite appropriate in a woman, and tends to lead to a negative result. Or perhaps I am just reading in more then that which is there?

I think Turgon's reaction upon the return of Aredhel's escorts is very interesting.

When at last they returned and their tale was told there was great sorrow in Gondolin; and Turgon sat long alone, enduring grief and anger in silence.

Who is he angry with? The escorts, for failing in their duty? Himself, for allowing Aredhel to leave? Or is he most angry with Aredhel herself, for not being a compliant, subservient sister? My guess is the latter is the closest to the truth.
It is at this point of the story that some of those new thoughts (or at least, more consciously considered thoughts) entered into my reading. Firstly, I had never really “clued in” to how similar the Dark Elf, Eöl, was to Aredhel in his “backstory”. He too, felt ”restless and ill at ease” when abiding within the boundaries of Doriath, no matter how beautiful and blessed that land may have been; and he too fled from the confinement of a protected and hidden realm. I think that in a subtle way, Tolkien was pointing to the duality of these guarded Elvish kingdoms: that in keeping the evils and perils of the surrounding world out, they also serve to force their inhabitants to remain in. It is a “fortress existence”, a siege mentality that cannot help but feed a shadow that quietly gnaws at the bliss and beauty of the culture within. I believe Lothlórien is also touched by this dilemma, but I think that may well be the topic of another discussion. ;)
What a great observation, Ath. I had never made that connection before. Perhaps these similar reactions to being penned in help explain why Aredhel was "not wholly unwilling" (though I will have more to say about that comment in a moment).
Something else that never really “hit” me before is that the meeting of Aredhel and Eöl takes place in the Nan Elmoth, where Melian and Thingol first met, and, in a rather perverse way, parallels that meeting. Aredhel is drawn deeper and deeper into the great wood by the “enchantments” of Eöl, much like Thingol was drawn to Melian, but there is no “magic” timeless love that is kindled at their first touch; there seems to be no love at all, really.
Another parallel that I never really thought about before. One that certainly takes on most of its significance in the differences in the two situations, rather then the surface similarities.
For Eöl, it is “desire” that is roused, and for Aredhel…….well, this is where things get a little unsettling. Tolkien writes that she was not “wholly unwilling” in her union with the Dark Elf, but within the greater tale that contains so many great and noble love stories, this seems somehow "not as it should be" between two of the Eldar. Aredhel, although given somewhat more independence to “fare alone as she would”, basically trades in the “bonds” that she felt in Gondolin for the new, and far more sinister bonds of a loveless marriage and a life doomed to darkness and twilight.
Yes, Eöl seems incapable of feeling love. Even for his own son, we see later (as you point out) Eöl looks at him as a thing to be possessed, rather then a person to be held dear. As for Aredhel, I have always puzzled about this phrase that she was not "wholly unwilling." Where is that great fearless courage and resourcefulness that we have seen before? There seems to be some level in which Aredhel wants to be taken and held. I have always found this concept most unsettling.
The result of this dysfunctional union between “The White Lady” and “The Dark Elf” is, of course, Maeglin, the main subject of this chapter, and one of the most pivotal characters in the histories of the Noldor.
Again, I never really made the connection that this was a union of opposites - The White Lady and The Dark Elf. Interesting. And indeed Maeglin is a pivotal character. I see him as a tragic character caught up in forces that he can not control.
b]His words were few save in matters that touched him near, and then his voice had a power to move those that heard him and to overthrow those that withstood him.[/b]

Whoa……now doesn’t that sound an awful lot like Fëanor? :shock:
Indeed it is does. But we will see later that Maeglin does not share Fëanor's great strength and fortitude. For all of his faults, Fëanor would never have suffered the fate that Maeglin ending up suffering.
All these things he laid to heart, but most of all that which he heard of Turgon, and that he had no heir; for Elenwë his wife perished in the crossing of the Helcaraxë, and his daughter Idril Celebrindal was his only child.

Now, I’m not so sure that this is actually a conscious thought on Maeglin’s part to find a way to insinuate himself into a position of power. Perhaps it’s more a yearning to belong; to escape from his life of isolation and find a connection and a place with “his people”. Either interpretation is plausible, I believe.
I certainly have always looked at it in the former manner. The latter is certainly more charitable, but I'm not sure that I buy it. Perhaps it was a little of both.
There seems to me something inherently unpleasant in the way Tolkien describes how Maeglin “bides his time”, hoping “to wheedle the secret” of Gondolin’s location from his mother, or “perhaps to read her unguarded mind”, but maybe it is the sheer desperation to get away from the suffocating environment he is forced to endure that puts these dark desires in his heart. I’m finding Maeglin to be a far more sympathetic character with this reading, and I’m having some interesting “second thoughts” about his motives.
As I said before, I have always considered Maeglin a tragic, rather then evil, character. I do believe he is a victim of his Fate, caught up in forces that he cannot control.
In a “parting shot” at Eöl, Aredhel tells her servants that she and her son have gone to seek the sons of Fëanor, something that he has expressly forbidden her from doing because of his deep dislike and distrust of the Noldor.


Here we see that Aredhel is still acting like a spoiled teenager. Had she not left with such a parting shot, perhaps Eöl would not have been so close on their heels, and would not have discovered the way to Gondolin. It seems that many faults combined to lead inexorably to the final tragedy.
Riding in fury after them, Eöl encounters Curufin, and I think the resulting exchange between these two darkly menacing characters is an absolutely wonderful rendering of simmering hatred, barely contained within the formalities of carefully chosen words.
Yes, this is a great exchange.
But poor Maeglin, above all the splendours of Gondolin, espies Idril, and falls immediately and hopelessly in love with her. Poor Maeglin: I never thought I would write those words. But after his life of darkness, is it any wonder that this “golden” child of the Vanyar and Noldor would seem to him “as the sun from which all the King’s hall drew its light”?
I have always felt this way. Maeglin could hardly help himself from falling in love. Nor is there any indication that Maeglin shares his father's inability to feel love. I do believe that, at least initially, Maeglin's love for Idril was genuine, and not the "mere desire" that Eöl felt for Aredhel. It was the hopeless nature of that love, and Idril scorning of him, and most of all (later on) her turning to Tuor that turned his love to darkness.
When Eöl is brought before Turgon, once again the hand of friendship and kinship is offered, but the Dark Elf utterly rejects the authority of Lord of Gondolin. He is willing to surrender his claim upon Aredhel, but not upon Maeglin, and commands his son to leave “the house of his enemies and the slayers of his kin”.
I think there is a grain (or more then a grain) of truth in Eöl's accusations:

'No right have you or any of your kin in this land to seize realms or to set bounds, either here or there. This is the land of the Teleri, to which you bring war and all unquiet, dealing ever proudly and unjustly.'

His words about Aredhel also ring true, though as fate would have it (and because of Eöl's own actions) the truth of this statement was not be proven either way:

Yet if in Aredhel your sister you have some claim, then let her remain; let the bird go back to the cage, where soon she will sicken again, as she sickened before.

He does seem to accurately recognize that part of Aredhel's spirit that is most similar to his own.
But Maeglin answered nothing.

Four simple words, but my goodness, they do speak volumes, don’t they?


Indeed they do. But what do they say?
Turgon then answers Eöl’s defiance with words that actually remind me a little of Boromir’s at the Council of Elrond:

By the swords of the Noldor alone are your sunless woods defended. Your freedom to wander there wild you owe to my kin; and but for them long since you would have laboured in thraldom in the pits of Angband.
The comparison to Boromir is apt. There is that same prideful arrogance that tends to blind one from the potential ramifications.
But Maeglin looking upon his father was silent :(

Because of his murderous act, Eöl is sentenced to death, cast down from the sheer walls of the city to be broken upon the rocks below. His final words are a curse upon his son……a curse working within a curse, it would seem.

”So you forsake your father and his kin, ill-gotten son! Here shall you fail of all your hopes, and here may you yet die the same death as I.”

......And Maeglin stood by and said nothing. :(
We are really seeing quite a pattern here. I really would be curious to hear what people think about Maeglin's silence in the face of his father's fate.
Poor Maeglin: forever alone and without love, carrying the legacy of his parents own “strange and crooked” union, as well as being swept along by the far-reaching waves of bitter consequence that Fëanor set in motion. He carries the doom of Gondolin within him like some kind of dormant virus, waiting to be awakened. What terrible burdens to bear. :cry:
Beautifully put, Ath. What a terrible fate, to have one's love be deemed "an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor." In the grand scheme of things, I think this shows just how pervasive the Marring of Arda was, and how inexorable the fall of the Noldor was. What a terrible thing, that something as beautiful as Love could turn so dark and evil. And the resulting affect on Maeglin is very telling:

And he sought the more to have his will in other matters, shirking no toil or burden, if he might thereby have power.

A new thought comes to me unbidden as a result of this short sentence. Is it the unbridled exercising of free will that brings evil?

Thus it was in Gondolin: and amid all the bliss of that realm, while its glory lasted a dark seed of evil was sown.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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