Why is TTT the least liked movie?

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Pearly Di
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Post by Pearly Di »

sauronsfinger wrote:I think our two positions are not that far apart.
:)

I understand there are forums in which Tolkien fans unite to express their deep disapproval of PJ's adaptation: I could not cope with that much amount of negativity, it would drive me nuts.

In the heyday of the movie fandom, I was extremely active both on TORC and Imladris, two sites on which the quality of discussion was extremely high. Overall the films got a very positive reception once they were out. :)

We still had some really juicy ding-dongs though. :D But that was all part of the fun. :)

What impressed me about many of our purists is that they often argued their points from a filmic POV, rather than just ranting about how a film adaptation should be 'just like the book' (which most people realise is not possible, or even desirable).

I don't know why it is, but Tolkien fans just seem able to grasp the art of adaptation more than, say, Harry Potter fans ... who are endearing, but clueless, bless 'em.
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Post by Elentári »

I wish I had been in on the beginning of this thread, but, alas, as I am a newbie I'll just creep in quietly now....

For me, the problem with TTT was the effect it had on RotK. By this I mean that PJ's decision to try to synchronize the 3 storylines chronologically left him with padding needed for TTT and too much left over for RotK.

I am in agreement with Solicitr regarding the ending of TTT:
Properly that should indeed have been the fall of Saruman, intercut with Frodo's capture by Faramir. The discovery that this 'obstacle' was in fact a friend, even at the risk of his duty, would have made a far more fitting end than the Osgiliath nonsense. And a serious cutdown of HD screen time would have permitted giving the Ents their proper significance, not reduced to rather dimwitted bores (assuming, naively, that PJ ever understood Ents).
I was happy to go along with leaving Shelob over to RotK, but PJ left himself with so much to squeeze into RotK that vital end were left untied - especially Saruman's downfall - and there was no time left to develop Faramir & Éowyn's story in the HoH.

My qualm with Faramir's depiction is why was it ok for Aragorn to be able to resist the Ring without a second's hesitation, but not Faramir? Tolkien's way was to show the difference in the brother's characters. Instead, PJ gave us the ridiculous Osgiliation. If you want you could draw a religious allegory from it: Tolkien gave us Faramir as someone who could believe the dangers of the Ring without seeing proof, whereas PJ thought Faramir should be more of a Doubting Thomas.

All in all, tho' I think Tosh sums it up for me best:
I tot up all those precious seconds and minutes where Jackson wanders off the story to insert his inferior additions and think how they could have been used. Still all the same I enjoyed TTT. The opening was brilliant. Gollum was a revelation. Rohan despite a few dodgy lines and landscapes was magnificently realised. Helm's Deep was wonderfully dramatic, perhaps too dramatic when compared to the Pelennor. The trudge of Sam and Frodo and Gollum and their debates were captured without tedium. The trouble is that the small things that were bad were like a tiny stone in an expensive shoe, more irritating than their size would suggest.
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Post by axordil »

As much as I love the idea of the Faramir/Éowyn story, and the moment it sets up with the eagle, I would rather it had been omitted entirely, including from the book. It's Tolkien playing "pair the spares" with Éowyn, who was a late add. It reads to me like fan fiction: very well-written, but an addition to the actual story.

*puts on reflective suit* :devil:

I agree with much of what has been said. The ultimate problem with TTT is that you have to intercut in a film with this much going on. That forces synchronization of emotional impact: the big Aragorn plot line scene has to line up with the big Merry/Pippin scene and with the big Frodo/Sam scene. But the story as told isn't like that, because the books aren't under that pressure. So yes, stuff that should have stayed in TTT (the fall of Saruman, perhaps Frodo/Shelob) ends up in ROTK. As others (maybe even myself) have said before, though, if you start Frodo off in ROTK in Cirith Ungol, you don't have an awful lot to do with him and Sam before they get to Mt. Doom that isn't travelogue. BOOOORING. It's a hard call.

PJ didn't help himself by introducing the extra Arwen-Aragorn angst and the wargs (which are really the same intrusive plot line). But even if that had been omitted entirely, and he had had those fifteen minutes back, the synch problem remains.
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Post by solicitr »

The synch problem is why I suggested ending the Frodo/Sam part at Henneth Annun- because that's closer to how the calendar lines up (actually, the fall of Saruman occured on 5 March, the day F&S reached the Morannon; they met Faramir two days later). The fact that their journey would thereby be shoved partly into RK isn't a huge problem in my book, since RK sans appendices is far the shortest of the three volumes, and it happens to be the case that Shelob's Lair and Frodo's capture did coincide with the Siege of Gondor (he escaped the morning of the Pelennor) In fact Tolkien expended a *lot* of labor, even well after the book was 'finished', to get things to line up that way; evidently it was very important to him, or at least he believed (in fact stated) that Frodo's escape could only work if Sauron's attention was fixated on Gondor.
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Post by Elentári »

Axordil wrote:
It's Tolkien playing "pair the spares" with Éowyn, who was a late add. It reads to me like fan fiction: very well-written, but an addition to the actual story.
I hardly think she was a late add.

I understood that originally Tolkien intended for Éowyn to marry Aragorn. Later, however, he decided against it because Aragorn was "too old and lordly and grim." He considered making Éowyn the twin sister of Éomund, and having her die "to avenge or save Théoden". He also considered having Aragorn truly love Éowyn and never marrying after her death.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

You are quite right, Elen (can I call you "Elen"?). It was Arwen who was the "late add".
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Post by axordil »

I understood that originally Tolkien intended for Éowyn to marry Aragorn. Later, however, he decided against it because Aragorn was "too old and lordly and grim." He considered making Éowyn the twin sister of Éomund, and having her die "to avenge or save Théoden". He also considered having Aragorn truly love Éowyn and never marrying after her death.
All true, but was not Éowyn added fundamentally because JRRT's daughter Priscilla said he needed more female characters? That's what I meant by being a late add. Once he had added her, THEN he had to figure out something appropriate to do with her: kill her off (heroically) or marry her off (nobly). The fact that he had considered her as Aragorn's wife may be what gives the Faramir thing the feeling of slash-y fan fic: it's an alternative to what came to the author first. It also goes a ways toward explaining why his marriage to Arwen comes off as such an afterthought. It was. :D I'm forgiving of authorial afterthoughts: I've had my own. But that also helps me recognize them.

But this is a digression, even an...Osgiliation. :)
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Post by Elentári »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
You are quite right, Elen (can I call you "Elen"?).


Sure thing, V, it saves having to type those pesky "accents" ;)

It may have been an afterthought, Ax, but to me it worked out perfectly - two emotionally wounded characters that healed each other. :love:
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Post by Frelga »

Elentári wrote:It may have been an afterthought, Ax, but to me it worked out perfectly - two emotionally wounded characters that healed each other. :love:
:agree:

There is something that is profoundly true about Faramir and Éowyn romance. She goes from the girly crush on the King to the deep emotional connection with a good man. At the same time, she matures enough that the dream of renown no longer motivates her and she is ready to take care of things that are less glorious but more important.
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Post by axordil »

I said good fan fic, didn't I? :D

Here's the thing: take out the Houses of Healing chapter, leave Faramir as the new Steward and Prince of Ithilien, and Éowyn on a slow mend--but on her own, without a subby hubby. Would anyone feel something essential had been left out, if they hadn't read the story as is, and thus acquired a bias for that iteration? It's a nice addition, but not one that helps to complete the story. It ties a knot where the "loose ends" were fine.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

It happens awfully fast, though.

I can understand the plot reasons why it had to. But it has always felt a little convenient to me—not that it happened, but that her mind changed so much so quickly.

Edit: Cross-posted with Ax. I wouldn't have liked the "loose ends"—fine for more realistic works, not so satisfying in a story like LotR, especially where everyone else is dealt with tidily by at least the end of the Appendices.
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Post by axordil »

Prim--

Would it have been more satisfying, do you think, if the material from Appendix A were worked in somehow, thus setting up a parallel romance to counterpoint the slow/quick thing?
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Post by Frelga »

Primula Baggins wrote:It happens awfully fast, though.

I can understand the plot reasons why it had to. But it has always felt a little convenient to me—not that it happened, but that her mind changed so much so quickly.
That was a rock out of a glass house, if I ever saw one. ;)
Sometimes things do happen fast, though. I knew I wanted to marry my hubby by second date. Or so it seems now. :upsidedown: And especially, things happen fast during times of war, where the awareness of death makes people reach out for life.
Edit: Cross-posted with Ax. I wouldn't have liked the "loose ends"—fine for more realistic works, not so satisfying in a story like LotR, especially where everyone else is dealt with tidily by at least the end of the Appendices.
I wouldn't have like it either, if Éowyn was left alone, hurt and bitter.

And Ax, I don't think there would be room in the already slow ending of the book for the slow romance, and it would be a distraction. Things are fine the way they are, as far as I'm concerned.

It was Arwen appearing from nowhere that blindsided me.
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Post by axordil »

Frelga--

What I'm thinking about is more actual inclusion of the Arwen/Aragorn romance throughout the books, the way PJ kinda tried to do (with very spotty success), which among other things prevents the "oh, yeah, and here's his wife too" thing you mention. If you have a looooooooong fairytale romance that finally culminates at the same time as an instant fairytale romance, I think it's possible to make both feel more plausible and interesting.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Frelga . . . oooo, I oughtta. . . . :rage:

My entire published body of work (both books! :D ) is a glass house compared to LotR. So I feel free to complain about things I could not possibly have done better. :P

Anyway, mileage varies on the point you hint at. :D

Ax, I do think it would have been possible to weave Arwen into the story more solidly, and that it would only have made Éowyn's love for Aragorn more poignantly hopeless. But doing it that way might have felt almost as odd to readers as the "Here's his wife, too" approach. We're conditioned to see love as so central to a character's life that seeing Aragorn go off so far, for so long, risking so much, might have made some readers think of him as heartless. And Tolkien would have had the same problem PJ did, finding things for Arwen to do and say that keep her alive in the story even though she's not involved in any of its events.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by Elentári »

Primula Baggins wrote:
It happens awfully fast, though.

I can understand the plot reasons why it had to. But it has always felt a little convenient to me—not that it happened, but that her mind changed so much so quickly.
If we are talking about the film, then yes, it does happen awfully fast - that was the problem for PJ - running out of time to develop their romance more as it happened in the book, where it takes Éowyn much longer (till after the Ring was destroyed and she refused to go to the field of Cormallen) to realize that Faramir is the person she needs to make her life worth living again.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I was actually talking about the book, Elen; there is more actual time there than in the film, but it still feels fast because it's all that happens to her in the story after the Pelennor.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by axordil »

Should we take the Aragorn/Arwen/Éowyn/Faramir question elsewhere? :)

Elen--It's still within the space of a chapter, so as Prim notes, it's going to feel fast even if they skip twenty years in that chapter. :D

Prim--I think the centrality of Aragorn's love for Arwen could have been used to cover that precise question, and to deepen the story, if it were highlighted early and with more vigor. It's just hinted at and alluded to as it is now. If it were more clear that a great deal of his motivation to not just combat Sauron but work for his final defeat in his lifetime came from that love, the burden of having to spend a third of his life away from her to achieve it becomes more real. It also helps to make F/E more poignant, as these are two people just on the verge of romance at the precise moment when things could tip either way, and so end up in the exact same situation as the couple who have been waiting literally a lifetime for it.
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Post by Elentári »

Ax wrote:
Elen--It's still within the space of a chapter, so as Prim notes, it's going to feel fast even if they skip twenty years in that chapter
Fair enough point, it's just that it's never felt rushed to me...it just felt right (ok, I know, the feel-good ending syndrome ;) )

Actually, just re-reading that particular part of RotK, PJ was probably right not to make too much of it before the coronation, since even in the book F & E didn't announce their betrothal until Théoden's wake.

I also concur with your thoughts on Aragorn & Arwen's love:
Re Aragorn:
If it were more clear that a great deal of his motivation to not just combat Sauron but work for his final defeat in his lifetime came from that love, the burden of having to spend a third of his life away from her to achieve it becomes more real.
I too wish Tolkien could have woven Arwen into the story throughout the book. One of many things I missed in the movies was the Twins bringing her banner and her wise words of hope and purpose to Aragorn.....
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Post by Pearly Di »

axordil wrote:Should we take the Aragorn/Arwen/Éowyn/Faramir question elsewhere? :)
Fine by me. :horse:

I never questioned the improbable speed of the Faramir/Éowyn romance because LotR is, in many ways, a fairytale, and you can get away with this kind of thing in a fairytale ... particularly if you are as skilled at what you're doing as Tolkien. :)

And, let's face it, Faramir is a Gary Stu. Tolkien admitted it himself: Faramir is self-insertion. :blackeye: But he is the most awesome Gary Stu of all time. :P

Actually, I find the psychology of why Faramir and Éowyn could have fallen in love so quickly very convincing. They've been both intensely isolated: Éowyn because of the horrible Grima situation, having to watch her uncle fall under Saruman's connivings, and Faramir because of his father's bitterness and unreasonably high expectations.

They work very well together as a couple. :) As Tolkien said, Faramir 'understood Éowyn very well'. He understood her desperation and isolation.

They are my favourite Middle-earth romance. But then I've always been smitten with Faramir :blackeye: and I have come to regard Éowyn as one of the finest characters in the story. The story would be impoverished without her, for sure. :)
Last edited by Pearly Di on Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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