Plane crash in New York

Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:57 am

I believe God is in good and bad. - Tarak McLain

Out of mouths of babes ... .

Post by **Lurker** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:02 am

I'm not saying that God has to microdirect us on every aspect of our lives but sometimes there are events that you could actually, see, feel the presence of God. It's difficult to explain it. Even some of the survivor's themselves said that they prayed their hardest in that time of need. It's just proves that God doesn't answer all prayers yet he answered this one. IMHO, surviving this ordeal, will make a few of those survivors take a closer look at their lives and see what they can do to change for the better. That for me is divine intervention in itself.

I had to smile and say "Hey, they look like they are walking on water." when I saw the picture of all those people standing on the wings of the plane. I had to look twice to see there was actually a wing there.

Like I said, people want to believe what they want to believe. I do believe this was a miracle.

Post by **Lurker** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:09 am

Primula Baggins wrote:God intervenes in the world through us. We may not know it or believe it, but we can still do God's work—or thwart it—because we have the choice.

Therefore, you do believe God intervenes through human beings, not necessarily the way people believe that a miracle only happens when God actually talks to man through a dream or a burning bush.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:15 am

I mean that we do what God wants when we do right (whether or not we believe in God at all). I don't mean that we do miracles. Acting with compassion, mercy, and charity is miracle enough for me.

Post by **WampusCat** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:56 am

Primula Baggins wrote: For me, God's role in suffering and tragedy is neither to cause it nor to prevent it, but to be present and to give hope, strength, and courage to those who ask for it, whatever the outcome.

That is exactly how I see it.

A local rabbi put it this way: "To say that God was with those who were saved on that flight might imply that God was not with those who have perished in the other airline tragedies. When facing life threatening situations we put our souls in God’s hands whether we live or die. God is with us in both cases. I believe that God was with the passengers on that flight. God was with the captain who used his God-given wisdom to land the plane with unsurpassed skill. God was with the rescuers who used their resources with expertise and with each passenger who used their God-given attributes acting with courage, compassion and strength."

Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:01 am

And God was also with the captain of a flight that crashed with all hands aboard, due to pilot error. The ways of God are simply beyond human understanding.

Post by **Lurker** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:13 am

I just want to share my favourite poem/song:

Footprints

One night a man had a dream. He dreamed He was walking along the beach with the LORD. Across the sky flashed scenes from His life. For each scene He noticed two sets of footprints in the sand. One belonging to Him and the other to the LORD.

When the last scene of His life flashed before Him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of His life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times of His life.

This really bothered Him and He questioned the LORD about it. LORD you said that once I decided to follow you, you'd walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life there is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed you most you would leave me.

The LORD replied, my precious, precious child, I Love you and I would never leave you! During your times of trial and suffering when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Carolyn Carty, 1963

Post by **yovargas** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:15 am

Should move this thread to Tol Eressëa.

Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:17 am

Yes'm.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:24 am

Voronwë wrote:And God was also with the captain of a flight that crashed with all hands aboard, due to pilot error. The ways of God are simply beyond human understanding.

I think, Voronwë, that Wampus would not disagree. As I believe, anyway, God being with you doesn't save you from pain. That's not part of the deal. Life is what it is.

God (I believe) helps. Living the best life you can while facing what you must face is what God will help with.

Post by **Lurker** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:45 am

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:And God was also with the captain of a flight that crashed with all hands aboard, due to pilot error. The ways of God are simply beyond human understanding.

I know somebody whose only son died in a boating accident, most people when faced with that tragedy would be bitter or blame God for what happened. Yes, he was bitter, he was upset, who wouldn't, but after a few months he re-examined his life why did this happen. He became spiritual/religious, put his family first, concerned for his employees well being, over everything else, before he used to be a workaholic since he thinks he has everything, money, career, a loving wife and good kids that never got in trouble, so there was no place for God in his life. Why would he need him when everything else seems to be A-okay. Then this accident happened, it changed his life, he realized life is too short, that even if you are the most powerful human being in the world, one tragedy such as this will shatter your world, you can't blame God for what has happened, heck, if only he knew that his son was going boating with his friends that day he wouldn't have allowed it, but no, he was busy with the earthly stuff. See, something good comes out of tragedies, it may make you stronger or it may make you bitter.

Post by **Lidless** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:43 am

Is it a bird? is it a plane? Oh-oh, it's both, and the plane's now smoking.

I won't comment on the idea that God was involved here. About 110 people died in car crashes in the US the same day.

Post by **Dave_LF** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:39 pm

vison, I agree. I almost bumped the "grisly miracles" thread on b77 to make that same argument, but decided I didn't have the energy to pursue it.

Post by **MithLuin** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:02 am

I believe God does intervene, and there are miracles...but not for the sole benefit of the people involved.

Jesus healed people during his lifetime (or at least, the Bible certainly says he did.) Why? There were probably tons of lepers, tons of blind people, tons of people with really awful ailments. Why did he choose to heal those people? Why did he raise a select few people from the dead?

You know, I really don't know. But I will say, that he always, always credited it to their faith. He wasn't going to heal anyone against their will or if they didn't ask for it, certainly. But I also think he did it as a public sign. It was for the benefit of the witnesses as much as it was for the healing of that person's life. This is particularly true in the case of the paralyzed man - the first thing he said was that the man's sins were forgiven (this earned the customary murmuring about what right he had to declare such a thing), and then he followed it up with, fine, which is easier, to forgive his sins or cure his illness? Get up and walk. And the man walked. (Jesus' mad debating skillz, :lol:)

God certainly works through people. Jesus has no hands on earth but ours, no feet now but ours... But I do believe in other miracles - the kind that don't rely on human intervention, but have more to do with the power of God being made manifest. And if I see that, I certainly would praise him for it. God can calm a stormy sea - or make it crash onto Egyptian chariots and charioteers. He doesn't always do it when I think he should, but that comes back to me not having the mind of God.

I don't tend to see it in cases like this - as was said, it was the pilot's skill, etc, that saved this from being a disaster. But also...death comes for us all, and no miracle prevents that. What is a 'tragedy' in God's eyes is very different from a plane crash or succumbing to cancer, as sad as those things are for the families involved. Tragedies are when people waste their lives, die in despair, lose all hope and love, etc. That is why most miracles of healing aren't a matter of medical diagnosis but of a change of heart. This is not to say that no one will ever be miraculously saved from disaster...just that I'm not surprised when it doesn't happen. As St. Teresa of Avila famously complained to God, "If this is the way you treat your friends, it's no wonder you have so few!"

I am sure many of the people on that plane will realize that they had a narrow escape from death. Some of them may have a few stiff drinks and forget about it, going on with their lives as if nothing had happened. And some of them might take the opportunity to take stock, to see if they would have been satisfied if that was their final day. That is the part of the story we will never learn in the news, but somehow, I guess that is the part that God finds most interesting.