Harry Potter (No book 7 spoilers, please)

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superwizard
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Post by superwizard »

MithLuin wrote: The third one was different, and I liked it. So I then raced right through books 4 and 5.... I guess I read all of them in about a month (my brothers were reading them along with me, so that was fun...) I then had to wait a whole year for book6 :P
I agree I was dissapointed when I saw the third movie. I think the third book is my personal favorite because I think we really start seeing the character's personalities in that book.:):D
But let's talk about that low life skum of a wizard (Snape). Why do you think he went bad? I don't think he went from good to bad, I think he was always evil. You should have seen me after I read the sixth book, I was fuming and angry and I got in a fight with pretty much everyone I saw. Dumbledore was my favorite character and I reall went angry when he died. :devil: :x I read the rest of the book saying to myself: He's gonna come back I know he is. Alas that did not happen. :(
My brother's reaction to the situation was totally different. He was happy!!! He said that he never liked that snot nosed wizard anyway. Well needless to say I started yelling at him. :)
So what do you think, was Snape ever good?
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Post by Queen_Beruthiel »

I think Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders, in collusion with him.
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Post by TheWagner »

Greetings, again, all! QB put me on to this: you can send her hate mail at your leisure!

MithLuin wrote:And as for The Wagner being right.... he thought Harry and Luna were going to get together in book 6
They still will! Luna is Snape's daughter in disguise and because Snape was in love with Petunia and because the Balrog really did not have wings, Ron is evil and Harry will fall for Luna!

I do not see why this is no obvious to everyone..... 8)

Seriously, I committed the worst of sins there: I projected! My wife and I got together under very similar circumstances. Of course the way that we got together must be the way that other couples get together because we all know that there is only one true path to love. (We know this because Harmonians told us so, and 14 year olds know everything.)

(Heck, the drawing of Luna with the Gryffindor Lion hat even looks like my wife - I mean, how much more obvious could JKR have been???)


I agree with QB about Snape. I think that we will learn that the argument that Hagrid overheard dealt with just this scenario. As JKR so loves to do, it would explain numerous details that seem to have either singular explanations or as yet are unexplained.

Wildwood wrote:there are things that just drive me crazy - like the dragon chase in this last movie that came out last holiday season! Not in the books, and a huge waste of time, in my opinion
Well, it was a grand total of 2 minutes, and it was much more cinematic than 2 minutes of Harry zipping around the dragon (which is what the book had). Audiences loved it, and it actually served the story much better than a re-enactment of the narrative because we saw Harry think on his feet (or broom) despite the terror of the situation.

Plus, no actual dragons were harmed in the filming. The credits said so.

Seriously, this is a case where to convey the same themes, the movie had to change the presentation: the drama in the book is in Harry's head, and without the dreadful voice over, a movie cannot convey that.

quote=Queen Beruthiel wrote: We are both of us very firm HP revisionists (in my case, game-keeper turned poacher).
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superwizard
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Post by superwizard »

Queen_Beruthiel wrote:I think Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders, in collusion with him.
I don't think so. If he had why did Gandalf plead for his life before Snape killed him? :? I hated Snape before book 6 but after it man oh man if I was at Hogwarts I would have hunted Snape down and I would finish him off. =:) :devil: :horse:
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Post by Athrabeth »

superwizard wrote:
Queen_Beruthiel wrote:I think Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders, in collusion with him.
I don't think so. If he had why did Gandalf plead for his life before Snape killed him? :? I hated Snape before book 6 but after it man oh man if I was at Hogwarts I would have hunted Snape down and I would finish him off. =:) :devil: :horse:
Ah.....but is Dumbledore pleading for his own life, or for Draco's? 8)
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Post by Pearly Di »

Exactement!

My money is on Snape acting on Dumbledore's orders. 8)

If not, my disappointment in Rowling will know no bounds. Because for Snape to turn out just plain evil would be soooooo lame.

No, he's working for Dumbledore. In that crucial moment, they both act to save Draco.

When Harry gives chase, in murderous mode, Snape positively barks CLUES at him about how useless his spell offensives are. Translation: "get up to speed, Harry, improve your game - you're going head-to-head with Voldemort soon, you've got to do better than that."

Of course, if Snape is a double agent (and I believe he is), he is in a tremendously dangerous position - having acted to save Draco by killing Dumbledore, he has to keep up the act of being on the Death Eaters' side.

It's not over yet.

And if Harry kills Snape before the truth comes out, I will be very annoyed with him AND Jo Rowling. :D

And if JKR can tie up all those loose ends in Book 7, I shall be amazed.

Hi Wagner! :wave:
Last edited by Pearly Di on Sun May 07, 2006 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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superwizard
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Post by superwizard »

I see your point Pearly Di maybe Snape was following Dumbledore's orders. Dumbledore always said there were worse thinhs then death...
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Post by Alatar »

I'm also in the "Snape acting for good" camp. I'm also 100% convinced that Dumbledore is not dead. How that affects the unbreakable curse I dunno. Maybe he did die and Fawkes brought him back somehow. Trust me on this one. Something happened to Dumbledore while his "body" was out of sight.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Didn't Rowling say at some point that anyone who dies in these books is going to stay dead? (This isn't really a Book 7 spoiler, as she was talking about Sirius's death, if I recall correctly.) I hope she hasn't changed her mind. (I am not hooked into spoilers on this and have no idea if there's been any indication either way.)
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by Alatar »

Well, whatever she may have said, she's left an awful lot of "hooks".

Sirius conveniently being knocked behind the veil.
Dumbledore getting thrown over the parapet out of sight and being basically ignored for a good 10 minutes.

I don't buy it.

Besides every other Avada Kedavra spell had the victim crumple to the floor. Why was D catapulted over a parapet? And why the insistence of introducing unspoken spells? Also, aren't we told that you cannot cast an unforgiveable curse without "meaning it"? My bet is that Snape spoke the Avada Kedavra spell, yet mentally cast another.

You can all buy me a drink when I'm proved right. :)
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Post by Athrabeth »

I hope JK doesn't bring back Dumbledore.

He had such a good death. :bawl: :love:

It really does make him the absolute antithesis of Voldemort, who fears death, and tries to cheat it.

Dumbledore facing his own death with such resolve and sacrificing himself not only for Draco, but for the good of the "mission" against Voldemort is so poignant and inspiring, and his burial so meaningful and beautifully sad. I really wonder if most of that impact would be lost if he turns up safe and sound in Book 7. :(

Sort of like if Frodo turned up on Sam's doorstep in the Epilogue. 8)

But Al's right........there are "possibilities" there.

And Sirius? Well, that's a different matter. :upsidedown: I expect to see him again because his 'death' was just so........so............"unfinal". And there's something about that mirror he left with Harry.........:suspicious:
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Well, if either of those two returns, I will be disappointed. First, because I'm an old meanie, and second, because one of the things I've admired about these books is their honesty—bad things do happen, good people do make mistakes, people who seem bad do turn out to be all right, etc. Bringing people back from the dead is the ultimate cop-out, especially if the death had a real impact on the characters and the story. "Harry has learned a deep, sad lesson about Life—whups! No, I guess he hasn't. . . ."
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Athrabeth »

I'd feel that way about Sirius too, Prim, if Harry had actually been able to mourn over his fallen body......if there had been some kind of closure, as there was with Cedric and Dumbledore. But falling through that veil and disappearing........well, that feels tricksy to me, precious. :upsidedown:

There are so many threads that need to be tied off before the final tapestry is complete......so many possibilties. I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing how Rowling puts it all together.

All I know is, I don't want a "dancing Ewoks ending". :rage:
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Well, it felt tricksy to me, too, to be honest, but I still hope the Not Really Dead card doesn't get played. Harry has that mirror; maybe what's still to come is a final communication with Sirius, which would allow closure for Harry (and a chance to mourn him properly).

(That also wasn't a spoiler—I really have no idea what's coming.)
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by MithLuin »

superwizard wrote:But let's talk about that low life skum of a wizard (Snape). Why do you think he went bad? I don't think he went from good to bad, I think he was always evil. You should have seen me after I read the sixth book, I was fuming and angry and I got in a fight with pretty much everyone I saw. Dumbledore was my favorite character and I reall went angry when he died.
Why do you do this to me? Why? I am now tempted to write a dissertation, a life's work on the subject....and it may all be proven wrong in less than a year. Why me???

Hehe, just kidding. I do think it is an interesting question. I've currently written over 30,000 words of a fan-fiction giving my precise answer, but I'll summarize ;).

Snape had a lousy childhood. He did not know love at home. He hated his father - who had a temper (hmmm, sound familiar? Ever seen that in him before?) At school, he was a loner, admired by the older Slytherins as a clever boy (prodigy, almost), but no real friends. He was the preferred target of the Marauders, who were real berks by year 5. In year 6, Sirius Black (who also had a rotten home life) tried to kill him. Dumbledore (the focus of justice in the world) chose to look the other way.

That was it. From that point on, it was inevitable that Snape would allow his hatred of the world to draw him inexorably towards the Death Eaters - who had the power to settle petty vengances.

I think it was Lucius Malfoy who was responsible for forging that connection. He would be the one to introduce Snape to LV, or at the very least make it possible for him to become a Death Eater. He exudes 'patron' in his dealings with Snape, even 15 years later. I also think it clear that Tobias Snape is now dead - and not from old age. While I will not go so far as to say Snape murdered him....he is not guiltless in the death. Snape's skills (in the Dark Arts or Potions) would set him apart and allow him to join the DE's despite his blood. And his 'gang of Slytherins', the only friends he had, were all Death Eaters.

But Snape was different from the other DE's. He is petty and cruel, I will grant you that. But he is also intelligent (so not fooled by LV's rhetoric) and he has a sense of honor and rules. He is always angry with Harry for breaking the rules - he really wants to see justice in the world. So, in a sense, he has something in common with Javert (from Les Mis). It was only a matter of time before he became disillusioned with the Death Eaters.

But when, and how? I'm not sure. But I am fairly certain it was after LV asked him to get a job at Hogwarts, spying on Dumbledore...so after he told LV the prophecy. My guess (and I will fully admit this is still fan-fiction, for now) is that when he realized that Lily Evans Potter would become a victim of LV, and it was all his fault... he wanted out. But how? Regulus reached the same decision, and ended up dead. You can't quit the Death Eaters! So...Snape went to Dumbledore, confessed, and wanted some guarantee of his life in return. Dumbledore, recognizing the power of love, (You see, Snape :kiss: Lily), accepted the repentance as genuine and agreed to vouch for Snape (saving him from the Ministry), and Snape agreed to spy on LV ('saving' him from LV). Or something like that.

So, now Snape is a double-agent...and both of his bosses know that he is a double agent (but of course think he's really working for them...) As a true Slytherin, Snape's primary concern is his own neck. But...he prefers Dumbledore to LV. He doesn't like Dumbledore, but he respects him a lot more. He is better friends with the DE's than the Order members... but he is more accepted in the Order. He wants LV to be defeated, once and for all, in fact wants it very badly...

...which is why he's so disappointed in Harry. This kid is his only hope - and he's just average. He's not clever like Hermione, he doesn't have any real flair for magic, he doesn't even work hard at school. And he looks like his hated dad...and it's all his fault Lily is dead.

That is why Snape treats Harry like dirt. He can't stand him, but only because his hope is there...and he sees no reason to hope. Dumbledore (who understands the power of :love: ), is confident in Harry. But Snape (who does not), does not see any reason to be hopeful. That is why he thinks it so important that Harry learn Occlumency and non-verbal spells.

I think something fishy happened on the Tower. Dumbledore could have fought back, but chose not to. He was only powerless because he chose to be. Why? My guess is that he thought it more important to spare Draco (whose task he was aware of, remember). So, yes, I think that he begged Snape to kill him, not to spare him. "Severus, please...." is so open to interpretation ;). I also suspect that he was dying already - whether from the potion he drank, or the injury to his hand.

As for what happens now? Snape is toast. He won't survive the war. The truth will come out, though. Harry will have to learn that he was wrong about him all along. He just has to...

PS - And welcome to you, Wagner! I'm glad you found your way over here. As you can see, your reputation precedes you ;)
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Post by Ethel »

I agree with Mithluin. Snape is an ambiguous character - by far the most interesting character in the HP books. But he is not, I think, evil. He chose long ago to take Dumbledore's side. Yes, I do believe this. I believe he killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore told him he had to, if it came down to Draco or Snape doing it. Dumbledore is very much interested in saving Draco's soul, if that can be done, and he seems to have had some kind of premonition that he wouldn't be around for the endgame.

But though Snape is not evil, he's also not exactly good. His behavior towards Harry is always, at best, mean-spirited. Dumbledore believes in Harry because he sees Harry's goodness and loving nature. But that cuts no ice with Snape. Snape admires clever, hard-working, studious wizards. That's why he was drawn to LV in the first place. Harry isn't like that. He's intelligent and not without talent, but he tends to do his best work only under pressure, in bursts of inspiration. That's very alien to Snape. Also, Harry resembles his father, whom Snape loathed.

Dumbledore isn't coming back, and neither is Sirius Black. The next book will be the last, and it's time now for Harry to learn to act - and to win - on his own, without protectors or mentors. I think it would be a serious narrative mistake to have either reappear.

I do not expect Snape to survive the endgame. My guess is that he will intervene at a strategic moment, at the cost of his own life - leaving Harry absolutely stunned.
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Post by Alatar »

Ì agree that neither should come back. But hoping for it and believing it are two different things. Something is not right with Dumbledore's "death". I already explained about the inconsistent Avada Kedavra, but also there's the issue of Fawkes. We know Fawkes is a Phoenix and can be reborn after death. We also know that the tears of a Phoenix have healing properties. All through the final chapters we are constantly reminded of the keening and weeping of the Poenix lament in the background. The person who takes most notice and has the strongest reaction to hearing the Phoenix Lament is not McGonagle, or Harry, or any of the main protaganists. It's Madame Pomfrey, the nurse who recognises what's happening.
'Snape killed him,' said Harry. 'I was there, I saw it. We arrived back on the Astronomy Tower because that's where the Mark was... Dumbledore was ill, he was weak, but I think he realized it was a trap when we heard footsteps running up the stairs. He immobilized me, I couldn't do anything, I was under the Invisibility Cloak – and then Malfoy came through the door and disarmed him –'

Hermione clapped her hands to her mouth and Ron groaned. Luna's mouth trembled.

'– more Death Eaters arrived – and then Snape – and Snape did it. The Avada Kedavra.' Harry couldn't go on.

Madam Pomfrey burst into tears. Nobody paid her any attention except Ginny, who whispered, 'Shh! Listen!'

Gulping, Madam Pomfrey pressed her fingers to her mouth, her eyes wide. Somewhere out in the darkness, a phoenix was singing in a way Harry had never heard before: a stricken lament of terrible beauty. And Harry felt, as he had felt about phoenix song before, that the music was inside him, not without: it was his own grief turned magically to song that echoed across the grounds and through the castle windows.
Now I know that the implication here is that Madame Pomfrey is crying becuase she's just heard of Dumbledore's death and that Ginny silences her to hear the Phoenix lament, but isn't it equally possible that Madame Pomfreys reaction is to the Phoenix Lament. She alone fully understands the power and beauty of it. She alone understands what it means.

Dumbledore certainly dies, after a fashion, but through Fawkes he is reborn. I'd bet my life on it. There's just too many clues.

Check out the funeral scene:
Then several people screamed. Bright, white flames had erupted around Dumbledore's body and the table upon which it lay: higher and higher they rose, obscuring the body. White smoke spiralled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but next second the fire had vanished. In its place was a white marble tomb, encasing Dumbledore's body and the table on which he had rested.
Harry will not know that Dumbledore was reborn. He will face Voldemort alone, without his safety net. But when all is done, Dumbledore will return.
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Post by Jude »

Has anyone mentioned that Harry can still talk to Dumbledore any time he wants to? Via the portrait in the gallery of previous headmasters.
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Post by superwizard »

Jude I don't think that is Dumbledore; it is just a painting with a character that looks and acts like Dumbledore...I think

MithLuin Thank you for that nice piece on Snape. I have to admit I am biased against Snape, I never liked him or trusted him. I loathe him and not because of Harry but because I like (or liked actually) Sirius so very much. Sirius had family if not as bad as Snape's close enough, and he did not become a death eater. Also I doubt we will see Sirius or even Dumbledore in book 7. However I must agree something just did not feel right when Snape killed Dumbledore. The reason Dumbledore did not try to prevent Snape was because he was weak from the porion and his remaining strength was used to freeze Harry.
I think something fishy happened on the Tower. Dumbledore could have fought back, but chose not to. He was only powerless because he chose to be. Why? My guess is that he thought it more important to spare Draco (whose task he was aware of, remember). So, yes, I think that he begged Snape to kill him, not to spare him.
That is a very interesting theory, I think it is very likely too. :)
Ì agree that neither should come back. But hoping for it and believing it are two different things.
I quite agree, I so want Dumbledore to come back but I just don't think that he should come back. His time is over and he lived a long and Happy life. As he put it in the very first book :
"After all, to the well organised mind, death is but the next great adventure."
Dumbledore probably wouldn't even want to come bak to life, his job was done Harry has to do the rest himself.
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Post by TheWagner »

Athrabeth wrote:Ah.....but is Dumbledore pleading for his own life, or for Draco's? 8)
Or is he pleading with Severus to do what Severus must do even though Snape does not want to do it?

Alatar wrote:Trust me on this one. Something happened to Dumbledore while his "body" was out of sight.
Dead is dead in Potterverse, and so Rowling has insisted. Much of this seems to be a reaction to her own mother's death, afterall. From a strictly literary point of view, JKR gave pretty good reasons for killing off Dumbledore in the "Delusional" interview. Harry has to stand on his own: after all, the stories are "Harry Potter and XXX"!


superwizard wrote:
"After all, to the well organised mind, death is but the next great adventure."
Dumbledore probably wouldn't even want to come bak to life, his job was done Harry has to do the rest himself.
That is almost certainly correct. Dumbledore seems to have understood a bit more about death than do most people. One aspect of the over-arching story concerns choices that one makes regarding death, and how those that try to deny death tend to make selfish decisions that hurt a lot of people, whereas those that accept death tend to contribute to a greater good. Harry seems to be close to understanding this, whereas Voldemort never will: do not be surprised if this is not important in the end!

MithLuin wrote:Why do you do this to me? Why? I am now tempted to write a dissertation, a life's work on the subject....and it may all be proven wrong in less than a year. Why me???
It won't take a lifetime: most programs would kick you out long before that!

MithLuin wrote:PS - And welcome to you, Wagner! I'm glad you found your way over here. As you can see, your reputation precedes you ;)
Ah, I am both flattered and terrified!

Your ideas about Snape are certainly consistent with the canon, and I expect that JKR wrote something similar to this.

However, I do not think that we need attribute any of Snape's actions to a keen sense of justice. Snape throws the rule book at Harry: but he conveniently ignores everything that his Slytherins do. Even when presented with eye-witness testimony of his students' behavior, Snape does nothing. His strong favoritism towards his house is not very just!


Instead, I would point simply to the Lily connection that you mentioned. Logically, we have to resort to some pretty out-there conspiracies to avoid deducing that Dumbledore believed that Snape cared about Lily. That is what brings out the hatred: Snape looks at Harry and sees only James Potter. Interestingly, Slughorn looked at Harry and saw Lily Evans.
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