Hell

[Ethel]

I'm sorry. I cannot believe that any supreme being would be so dogmatic and formulaic. So, I'm going to Hell. See you there!

You are contradicting yourself, my dear. You don't believe any supreme being would be so dogmatic and formulaic. So, you're not going to hell! Forget about what other people believe! Why do you care?

I am not contradicting myself. I am trying to understand the deity the rest of you profess to believe in. I was raised a Christian. I was taught that one must believe a very precise set of beliefs, or one would go to Hell. As I grew older, I came to reject many of those beliefs. I also can't find it within myself to believe in a 'personal' deity.

The truth is, Cerin, I don't care. I'm just disconcerted to realize that people I have thought of as friends seem so comfortable with the idea that I will be condemned to eternal torment. I don't believe it myself! I'm just dismayed to understand that people I have thought of as friends do believe it, and apparently have no problem at all thinking of me in the pits of fire. It takes one aback.

[Cerin]

Oh, for goodness sake!

Or should I say, 'Je m'embete!' (don't know how to make accents)

eta: cross-posted with Ethel

[Cerin]

But Ethel, I don't think there's a single person here who feels that way! If there is anyone here who is fairly convinced you are going to hell (which would be presumptuous to say the least), then I'm sure the thought is of the utmost horror to them.

[Jnyusa]

Ethel: I'm just disconcerted to realize that people I have thought of as friends seem so comfortable with the idea that I will be condemned to eternal torment.

I haven't heard anyone in this thread say that particular beliefs will be condemned to eternal torment, and I doubt that any of our friends find such an idea comfortable.

Jn

(cross-posted with Cerin)

[halplm]

Ethel, if you've had people tell you you're going to hell for not believing exactly as they do, then you're right to be angry at that.

The God I believe in loves you just as much as he loves anyone else. His desire is only for your love in return.

I believe Jesus told us how to form that relationship with God. I do not believe God wants to punish anyone for not forming that relationship with him. I believe simply, that if you are unable to form that relationship, there are consequences.

That's what this thread is about. It's not a fun subject, and I'd much rather talk about God's love, and how much that means to me and how much I'd love to share that with others.

I don't think Heaven is a reward, I think Heaven is where we ALL belong. I don't think Hell is a punishment, I think it's where we ALL DESERVE to be. Through God's love, we are able to escape what we deserve, and return to where we belong.

All you have to do is want it, and ask for redemption for your failures. It's not a horrible or difficult thing to do.

[Ethel]

But Ethel, I don't think there's a single person here who feels that way! If there is anyone here who is fairly convinced you are going to hell (which would be presumptuous to say the least), then I'm sure the thought is of the utmost horror to them.

But to me this just seems like a lack of conviction. Cerin, I was raised in a pretty intense Christian sect. They made no bones about it: either you believe the same as us, or you're going to Hell. I went through a lot of stages... that what I was taught was exactly correct... that what I was taught was maybe a little bit extreme... that salvation was definitely available to good people of other Christian faiths... that salvation was available to good people of ANY faith.

By then I was far outside the bounds of my original faith, and they disowned me. I lost my faith in God, then, but not in Jesus. Jesus works even if you don't believe in his divinity.

Cerin, if you believe what you profess to believe, you DO think I'm going to Hell. Unless you've decided not to belive in Hell, itself a heresy I think. You believe - you have said it - that salvation can only come through the precise beliefs that you have regarding God and Jesus. There's no need to sugar-coat it. You believe that people who believe the same as you will be saved, and all others will be condemned. Don't you?

I could never believe such a thing.

[Primula Baggins]

Ethel, you're attributing the same doctrinal rigidity to all Christians that you remember from your childhood sect. This is inaccurate and, may I say, unfair. And when we try to disagree you say you know better—that because we call ourselves Christians, we all rigidly fit your one single model of Christian belief. You do not know our beliefs better than we know them. And there are many, many forms of Christian belief, some of them on display in this thread. If we all got right down to it (heaven forbid), the Christians here would probably disagree with each other on many points, major and minor.

[Cerin]

Ethel, one thing I don't like is people telling me what I think. I do not think you are going to hell. That would just be appallingly arrogant and presumptuous.

And really, Ethel, when have you known me to sugarcoat my opinions?

You believe that people who believe the same as you will be saved, and all others will be condemned. Don't you?

I'm not really able to believe in anyone being condemned. How could anyone be condemned if I am not? You may ask how I rationalize this, and I would say, I believe nothing is impossible for God. I believe absolutely in the goodness of God. I believe it will all come out in the wash.

[Ethel]

Ethel, you're attributing the same doctrinal rigidity to all Christians that you remember from your childhood sect. This is inaccurate and, may I say, unfair. And when we try to disagree you say you know better—that because we call ourselves Christians, we all rigidly fit your one single model of Christian belief. You do not know our beliefs better than we know them. And there are many, many forms of Christian belief, some of them on display in this thread. If we all got right down to it (heaven forbid), the Christians here would probably disagree with each other on many points, major and minor.

Prim, you make a fair point. Indeed, I do not know your beliefs. Indeed, I have some bitterness from a harsh and punitive Christian sect I knew in childhood. I know that you & Cerin & others are loving and accepting human beings, and I honor you for it.

But at the end of the day... do you, or do you not, believe that acceptance of the Christian creed is essential to salvation? (I'm sorry, this was what I was taught, and taught pretty intensely.)

And came to reject. I love Jesus of Nazareth, though. He's lovely. He's an inspriation, now and always. I just came to hate the nasty narrow-mindedness of the Christian sect I had been raised within.

I guess the bottom line is, I'm not prepared to believe in any deity that is prepared to condemn anyone to eternal torment.

[Ethel]

Ethel, one thing I don't like is people telling me what I think. I do not think you are going to hell. That would just be appallingly arrogant and presumptuous.

And really, Ethel, when have you known me to sugarcoat my opinions?

LOL! Never, Cerin. Never.

[Erunáme]

But at the end of the day... do you, or do you not, believe that acceptance of the Christian creed is essential to salvation?

Wouldn't it be possible for Christians to believe in God and realize that they can never truly and fully understand His ways?

The Bible was written by fallible men. I have a feeling they didn't get it perfectly and didn't know everything there was. If there is a God, I don't think there's a single human being, aside from Jesus, who knows how He works. I think most of the Christians here realize this...that they don't know the answers and they won't pretend that they do. They won't condemn or judge others because it isn't their place.

[JewelSong]

Wow! What a thread to wake up to! Seems like I missed all the good stuff by going to bed!

Seriously, I was a bit taken aback by Ethel's post (although I'm sure glad she thinks I'm going to heaven...) Her later explanation about the kind of sect she was raised in made me understand a bit better where she is coming from and why she reacted the way she did.

But at the end of the day... do you, or do you not, believe that acceptance of the Christian creed is essential to salvation? (I'm sorry, this was what I was taught, and taught pretty intensely.)

No, I don't. And I posted this before in a different thread, with the statement that I am sure some people would say that means I am not Christian. (I have been told as much by other "Christians" who think differently...and told I am going to hell, too!)

Luckily, as I said, Jesus and I have a very good relationship and I know what I believe about him. And I am solid in my faith. And it is my faith and belief in HIM that makes me a Christian, not subscribing to a particular creed.

And came to reject. I love Jesus of Nazareth, though. He's lovely. He's an inspriation, now and always. I just came to hate the nasty narrow-mindedness of the Christian sect I had been raised within.

Seems to me like you're on the right track. You'd fit right in at our church!

[yovargas]

Well. I was gonna comment on the other stuff, but I think we can move on now, so...

To consign whole religions to hell is to go off on other people's beliefs

No, I have to disagree with this. Saying I believe that faith in Christ is the only way to reconciliation with God is not the same thing as consigning whole religions to hell. It is not. I believe Jesus is the only way to the Father, and yet, I consign no one to hell. No one.

Cerin, I don't understand this at all. I understand that you personally don't consign anyone anywhere as you don't have that power, obviously. But you're saying you believe non-Christ-believers are damned. I am a non-Christ-believer, therefore, you believe I will go to hell if I were to die right now. No? How is saying believing in Christ is the only way to salvation not the same as saying all who don't believe in Christ (say, all religious Jews) are headed for damnation?

[truehobbit]

But you're saying you believe non-Christ-believers are damned. I am a non-Christ-believer, therefore, you believe I will go to hell if I were to die right now. No? How is saying believing in Christ is the only way to salvation not the same as saying all who don't believe in Christ (say, all religious Jews) are headed for damnation?

May I take the opportunity of this question to ask why this idea is so offensive to so many people here?

I haven't participated in this thread yet, because on first reading your question, yov, I realised I couldn't answer it - since then, the thread has been moving too fast for me to properly find a point at which to join.
I have, however, seen this aspect come up a few times now, and I don't get why it upsets people.
I'm a Catholic, so I'm very well aware that many Protestant believers will be convinced I'm going to hell because I revere images and don't take the bible all too literally and all that.
I'm also sure that many fellow Catholics might think I'm hell-bound because I have issues with many Catholic concepts.
I'm pretty sure all Jews believe I'm condemned because I'm guilty of the worst kind of blasphemy, namely that of accepting Jesus as the Messiah and incarnation of God.
I also think that all Muslims believe I go to hell for believing in a Trinity, let alone violating all sorts of laws of propriety, and I wouldn't be surprised if Hindus and Buddhists were convinced I'll be re-born as an ant or so, because I completely neglect any Hindu-deity and like beef and don't scruple to eat meat in general etc, etc.
And you know, I don't care a damn!
Because I don't agree with any of those people!
What is it to me if anyone who thinks completely differently from myself believes I'm so wrong I'll be roasted to a crisp in the afterlife? It's nothing to me! Their idea of the afterlife is a different one from mine anyway. And I happen to believe that my own way of thinking about these things is right. (Otherwise I wouldn't believe it.) So, anyone else's way of thinking, while it might make me sad for what I perceive to be a folly, can't offend me in the way it seems to offend others.

Edited to add: what would hurt me, is if someone looked down on me for believing what I do believe, but that's a different thing.

For me (and this is in a way with my Shirriff's hat on) it's ok for anyone to say: I believe that anyone who doesn't stand on their heads for a minute at exactly four minutes past five each day is going to spend eternity in the afterlife being roasted on a cesspit.
Because a belief is a very personal thing, and it's not for any of us to say who is right and who is wrong!
It's therefore not ok to say things like: I think your belief is stupid and should be changed. Or: People like you have always been the cause of trouble in this world.
Or similar condemnations of what the other person thinks.
Hope that makes sense.

[yovargas]

I wasn't offended at all. (It'd be foolish of me to start this thread if I was). It just felt like Cerin was contradicting herself and I wanted to give her the chance to clarify.

[truehobbit]

Not you, yov, but others - from what I saw, it seemed to me that people's beliefs of what landed you in hell upset others - I don't understand why that is. I would understand if it amused them or made them think the person who says it is silly - not a kind emotion, and therefore one that could not be expressed here - but still one I could understand. What I can't understand is being upset and angry.

[Primula Baggins]

Even if we all did believe with utter confidence that people whose beliefs varied from ours were destined to burn, the idea that I, for example, would be walking around (or hanging around the boards) gloating, "Yup, that TP, she's going to fry in oil—and yov, maybe he'll be upside down in a vat of lava, that would be good. And Jn. . . ."

Why would I do such a repellent thing? How badly would it twist my soul if I did? Does anyone seriously believe that this is how all Christians think, and how all Christians behave?

[yovargas]

Some Christians do come off gloaty about the whole thing, but in my experience, they are the extreme minority. That's where I can see offense coming into the picture.

[Cerin]

Eru said: Wouldn't it be possible for Christians to believe in God and realize that they can never truly and fully understand His ways?

This is my answer to your question, yovargas. This is the reason for my hope that we may all meet in heaven regardless of the different things we all believe at this moment in time.

It is simply not part of my thought process to extrapolate information about a person's beliefs to an assumption that that person will go to hell, regardless of what I believe. Perhaps it is simply a defense mechanism because I would not be able to cope with such thoughts. My discussion of these concepts is just that, conceptual, not personal.

I'm sorry if that leaves you unsatisfied, but I'm not going to try and explain it further because I can't.

[yovargas]

I'm sorry if that leaves you unsatisfied

No, that works fine for me, I think. Thanks.