Ath wrote:I think it´s because I can understand, on a very personal level, how bitterness and despair can arise from the sorrow of "love lost":
[snip]
All those years walking in darkness and despair because of a broken heart, of losing the only and greatest love of her life. This is so "human", isn´t it? Perceiving the world according to our own inner workings, our own personal experiences; defying the wisdom of others because our hearts are so injured they cannot be wholly healed.
Thanks for explaining, Ath!
I completely agree with your description of Andreth and I understand that very well, too - but it made me actually understand the whole thing less!
It may make the subject of death more accessible, but I thought it was changing the setting of the story a lot!
I started out thinking that Andreth was kind of speaking for all Men. She's the wise-woman, Finrod asks her about what Men think because he can expect her to be the summary of human knowledge and thought - and then it turns out she's just speaking from personal experience. I loved the story of her blighted love, but it seemed to make her unsuitable for the role she should have played (at least in my impression of the first part of the story). As her personal story unfolds, it becomes obvious that she is not speaking for all Men.
It was interesting to read and discover my own doubts about her ideas rising as I was beginning to realise how her dark and hopeless world-view is the personal and individual opinion of this one woman at least as much as the general view of mankind!
Ath wrote:
Perhaps it´s because he knew that it is through losing who we love, or what we love, that we are faced with the greatest question we can ask about our own lives: why are we doomed to love, only to lose what we love?
Hmmh, that's not a question that had presented itself to me through this story, I must say.
I don't think there ever is the thought of "doomed to love" (which would seem to imply that it would be easier if we didn't start loving in the first place) - the loss of love in Tolkien's works rather seems to me to raise the question of loss and how to live with it.
Hi scirocco!
scirocco wrote:An intriguing work, for its metaphysics, if not to my personal taste as a story
Yes, I wouldn't say it's the story that's thrilling - though the love-story element that comes in at the end is very good, I think, adding a refreshing personal touch - I think it's a thrilling read as a philosophical discourse.
Having two characters discuss a philosophical problem is a technique to convey the pros and cons of a subject that has been used since antiquity - only in most cases even this dialogue-nature doesn't do much to make it lively and entertaining!
Tolkien succeeds very well, I think, to make the discourse thrilling to follow.
scirocco wrote:It's also fascinating to watch the different versions of the story teeter back and forwards on the brink of naming Morgoth as the cause of Man's mortality
So, would you say that Tolkien had not quite made up his mind on this?
Because that was such a confusing part of this text, I thought - what rowan said a while ago offered a way out for me, namely that Morgoth only gave them the fear and insecurity.
scirocco wrote:It shows Tolkien working as he often did; writing almost as if someone else was holding the pen, and then tearing apart, analysing, questioning and niggling it to pieces. The notes clearly reflect Tolkien's struggle to reconcile his Christianity with the demands of the story.
I hadn't thought of this before, but now you say it, yes, I think that's exactly what is happening.
Voronwë wrote:I think that the Athrabeth is extremely successful in achieving its main dramatic purpose, which as both Sassy and I have pointed out was to exhibit the generosity of Finrod's mind, his love and pity for Andreth, and the tragic situations that must arise in the meeting of Elves and Men.
Hmmh, I'm not so sure this is the
main dramatic purpose.
It is certainly a defining element of the story (and a beautiful one at that!), but not, IMO, the reason the story was written.
The main dramatic purpose, I think, is to show the predicament of Men and Elves - both have received different bits of "comfort" for their doubts and fears, but they don't know what to do with it - in getting together for the first time it looks as if they could fit the different pieces of the puzzle together to gain new insights:
'Yes, Wise-woman, maybe it was ordained that we Quendi, and ye Atani, ere the world grows old, should meet and bring news one to another, and so we should learn of the Hope from you: ordained, indeed, that thou and I, Andreth, should sit here and speak together, across the gulf that divides our kindreds, so that while the Shadow still broods in the North we should not be wholly afraid.'
For me, this was the key-passage of the whole text.
But it's true that under this interpretation the whole love-story takes on a strange aspect: it appears to be a completely new story, a diversion, a deviation from the original idea...
Doesn't it seem to anyone that the story changes with the appearance of the love story?
Maybe all I said just shows that I should get reading the rest of the comments and notes...