The Silmarillion Discussion at The Hall of Fire

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axordil
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Post by axordil »

VtF, you never struck me as Calvinist before. :D

On the other hand, is not the desire for timelessness inherent in time? I am reminded again of Wm. Blake, for whom the "world of generation," the fallen world we dwell in, was nonetheless essential for redemption...because only through living can we be redeemed.
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Post by MithLuin »

Mandos does not agree with that reading, Voronwë ;).
And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Fëanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song forever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: "So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been."

But Mandos said: "And yet remain evil. To me shall Fëanor come soon."
The curse was the price - the very necessary price - for the Second Prophecy to exist. And yet...it was still one of Morgoth's most evil acts. God can work miracles, so he can bring something good out of even unspeakable evil. But we should not mistake the devil for his servant, or suppose that evil-doers work his will. Rather, good is omnipotent, and evil (taking the long view) is powerless.

In the Exultet, the Church says every Easter, "o happy fault, that won for us such a redeemer." (Speaking of Adam's sin) It is true that, without a fall, you do not need redemption. The story of the Noldor is more interesting than the story of the Vanyar, after all!

Frodo never would have undertaken the Quest of Mount Doom if Sauron hadn't forged the One Ring. But....Sauron did not make Frodo. The power that meant for Frodo to have the Ring did that! Morgoth did not make Túrin. He merely made Túrin his enemy. The power that can make Túrin can bring about the Second Prophecy, I think! (And the more Morgoth fights it, the more he seals his own doom)

Yes, Morgoth may have unwittingly worked the will of Ilúvatar...but at no point was he his servant. He was a rebel, always. A rebel with no hope in his rebellion (for who is like God?), but an unrepentant one nonetheless.
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Post by axordil »

It's clear that JRRT had different thoughts through his carerr on just how destined things were, at the macro level vs. at the individual level...and that CJRT may have had his own as well. The tension is due in large part to the divergence between what was congruent with his Catholic theology, and what was to his (for lack of a better term) pagan Nordic taste.

I find the tension appealing, actually. One is not always sure what is fated and what is freely chosen, much like RL. :)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

It’s funny, but the scene in the EE of ROTK where Aragorn beheads the Mouth of Sauron crept into my mind as I was writing this……that, to me, is most definitely a “Túrin moment” if ever I saw one: the good and noble man acting on an impulse of rage, falling to his baser instincts.
I somehow missed this when I first read through your post, Ath. What an excellent observation!
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by MithLuin »

axordil wrote:Had Húrin been present for his son's coming of age, one suspects some of the impulsiveness and anger might have been tempered. There is a domestic tragedy wound about with the dynastic. Indeed, had Húrin died instead of being cursed, would not the beginning of the story, pretty much all the way through the dragon-centered part, been the same?
Yes, Thingol cannot be the father Húrin would have been. And yet...I think of Tuor, who was even more thoroughly abandoned than Túrin, and I have to wonder. Tuor's father died when Húrin was captured, and his mother (who had not yet given birth to him) left him when he was a baby to go lay down and die on her husband's tomb. He was fostered by elves....

And look how he turned out :D

I blame Morwen. If she had gone with her son, things would have gone differently. Instead, Túrin felt abandoned by his living relatives, which makes it almost worse than if they had actually died (and been kept from him by force). Well, okay, it's not all her fault - but her pride didn't help matters, either. Morgoth knew what he was onto with that family....

I know I am getting ahead to talk about Tuor...Gondolin is still standing, as we speak....but surely Ulmo's tinkering in Tuor's life is the flip-side of Morgoth's unseemly interest in Túrin's life.
She who is named in honour wrote:There is no mother who has lost her children to such despair than Morwen.
As soon as I read this statement...the name "Nerdanel" sprang to mind. Her sons (all 7 of them!) followed her estranged husband into exile. She never saw any of them again, and one suspects they were not released from Mandos. A big part of Morwen's grief is her uncertainty...Nerdanel must have been plagued by the same.
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Post by axordil »

Tuor's father died when Húrin was captured, and his mother (who had not yet given birth to him) left him when he was a baby to go lay down and die on her husband's tomb. He was fostered by elves....
This is a key distinction. It is far easier on a child to be raised from infancy by foster/adoptive parents than to lose a parent while young, and then be sent away by the other (even for good reason).

It's hard for me to fault Morwen for her decision, since she must have known that Túrin, staying, would likely get himself (at the very least) killed.
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Post by MithLuin »

I do not fault her for sending him....I fault her for not going herself.

And even the initial delay could be excused. Where I think her pride and stubbornness needed censure is when she sent the Dragon Helm instead of going herself.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Well she did have the excuse of having a babe in arms. It would have been very difficult to make that trip with Nienor.
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Post by superwizard »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:Well she did have the excuse of having a babe in arms. It would have been very difficult to make that trip with Nienor.
But was that the real reason she didn't go or was it her pride?? :scratch:
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yes. =:)
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Post by MithLuin »

The child was her "reasonable" reason and the pride was her "real" reason.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Quite true, Mith. Really, her pride first comes into play with her insistence upon sending Túrin to Doriath, rather then agreeing with Húrin's (perhaps more reasonable) suggestion that if the war goes wrong she look to Brethil. How different would the story have been had she followed that advice?

But that's not what was contained in the Music.
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Post by axordil »

I had forgotten Húrin's advice. He asked her to send Túrin to live with his mother's kin...one wonders how she felt about that side of the family. :D
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Just reminding people that this thread is still out there. :) I'm not inclined to move forward to the Ruin of Doriath quite yet, because I feel that there is still more to say about Túrin (though I don't have anything in particular to say right now).
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Post by Sassafras »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:Just reminding people that this thread is still out there. :) I'm not inclined to move forward to the Ruin of Doriath quite yet, because I feel that there is still more to say about Túrin (though I don't have anything in particular to say right now).
Yeah, but I do.

=:)


Ahem.

The quintessential anti-hero, or Tủrin Turambar:


<There is so much material in this chapter and there is so much to say that I don’t think I can possibly do it all justice in one post. In fact, I am not sure I can do any of it justice and what follows is merely my own take on the story. I do notice, however, that I share some quite similar views with Ath and Voronwë :love: I think there‘s more to come though. :D After all, I can‘t ignore, as Túrin so rashly did, Ulmo‘s warning to destroy the bridge at Nargothrond..>

:shock:

I read through this chapter one more time realizing that I really, really don’t care for Túrin very much at all …….. I don’t like him and am finding it difficult, almost impossible really, to muster any sympathy for the predicaments in which he invariably finds himself. His almost ‘Feanorian’ characteristics (as Ath says) lack the grandeur of Fëanor himself and are, for me at least, less comprehensible and far less sympathetic. He falls headlong from one crisis into the next and each succeeding one is more horrific than the one before. It’s the difference between the two children --- the Atani are the lesser born and , in Túrin’s age, have not yet been fully touched by Elvish grace. I almost understand the fearful pride that drove Fëanor but Túrin’s pride seems petty and frequently out of place. He does not warrant it and has not deserved to fall back upon it.

On the free will versus fate issue I contend that the ability to freely choose a course of action is only fully allowed for Men. Elves must travel the path to the Long Defeat whether they will or no and, in the broadest sense, the collective theme of their journey has been composed within the music. (You have all heard me expound upon this belief numerous times in the past so I shan’t bore you again :D ) The reason Men possess free will is in the main because they are not bound to the intrinsic fabric of the Earth in the same way as the Elves, hence ‘the gift of death’ and the fact that they will escape the confines of Morgoth‘s Ring which is, of course, ‘the circles of the world’ and also because it is through the ennoblement of Men with Elven blood that there is even the possibility of the eventual healing of Arda.

All this is to say that it is my belief that Túrin (unlike Fëanor) was the ultimate master of his own fate.

From the beginning we are told that Men think and feel differently: that they are unalike to all other things because they are not bound by the Music.

that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else.


It’s interesting how Tolkien uses both Elf and Man to illustrate the complex mingling of free will and fate and how he uses Light as a metaphor for the spiritual ...... And how each race approaches the journey which will allow them to meet and influence the other. The Elves move eastward -- away from the Light, and Men move westward -- away from the Dark (of Morgoth) and towards that Light which the Calaquendi hold within themselves.

Of the Coming of Men into the West:
A darkness lies behind us, said Bëor (when questioned by Finrod) “and we have turned our backs upon it, and we do not desire to return thither even in thought. Westward our hearts have been turned, and we believe that there we shall find Light.

I quote this passage for two reasons: to show that the second born, those who awoke to the lesser Light of the Sun and the Moon ( which is but a reflection and a dimishment of Telperion and Laurelin … a Light which carries the trace of poison and is sullied) and who heard no call from the Valar, who were left to their own devices and yet, without knowledge or comprehension, instinctively seek to move towards Light. This intuition (imo) is already innate and was no doubt woven into the theme by Eru.
The other reason is to propose that despite Túrin’s initial need to move toward Light, to do good in the world, the very turbulence of his spirit, compounded and exacerbated by the power of Morgoth’s spite, compels him downward ever deeper in the direction of the Dark -- the very place he wishes not to go and the very place from which there is no escape. Step by step, act by act, thought by thought, he is ensnared by his own machinations . He is truly his own worst enemy.

The tragic tale of Tủrin Turambar turan ambartanen: Master of Doom by Doom mastered is epic in scope with an Oedipal twist that astonished me on first reading. :shock: So eventful that it is downright dizzying and proved impossible to absorb at one sitting. If I may interject a little criticism here .... there is no calm in the story, no contrasts; it is such a bombardment of madness and mishaps that I am inclined to feel numb and therefore less affected by the ending. I feel that I should shudder at the sword's drinking Túrin's blood but instead my primary reaction is..... "Eh, so you got what you deserved!" ..... At every twist and turn his life is beset by unhappy accident, co-incidence and chance .... all of his intentions go awry.

And then there are the titles he takes upon himself:

Neithen, the Wronged.
Gorthol, The Dread Helm.
Agarwaen, Son of Úmarth: Bloodstained Son of Ill Fate.
Mormegil, Black Sword.
Turambar, Master of Doom.

This last is arrogance personified.

So, she rhetorically asks, :D what drives this gloomy story all full of darkness and ill choice? Does the finger of providential Doom show itself even here in this tale of this man of extremes?

It does.

Despite freedom of choice there still is Fate at work here.

Túrin is very much the child of his Mother. And, like Fëanor, is bereft of one parent’s softening influence. As is Morwen he is proud, stubborn in the extreme and , in the end, will fall victim to that obdurate pride.

One senses the intrusive hand of fate working through Beleg else why, in spite of Melian’s direct warning does Beleg choose Anglachel? That black sword forged from black iron by the black heart of Eöl, the Dark Elf. Deep within the structure of that sword Melian has seen an evil and the immense sorrow it will bring to all who cross its path.

There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the Smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves; neither will it abide with you long.

She sees clearly and yet surprisingly her prophecy holds no terror for Beleg. The Queen of Dorith is discounted and is dismissed in his answer of almost cavalier nonchalance “Nonetheless, I will wield it while I may.

He rebuffs her foresight to his peril … for wield it he does ..... to his death …..... and to the eventual death of his great friend, Túrin.

There is also this to consider:

The decision to wear the helm of Hador is a foolish decision and can only have been made for pride and bravado. Dread helm he calls himself ...


Narn I Hin Húrin.
It had a visor (after the manner that the Dwarves used in their forges for the shielding of their eyes), and the face of one that wore it struck fear into the hearts of all beholders, but was itself guarded from dart and fire. Upon its crest was set in defiance a gilded image of the head of Glaurung the dragon; for it had been made soon after he first issued from the gates of Morgoth.

This helm Húrin chose not to wear preferring, as he says, to look upon his enemies with his own eyes. Yet Túrin embraces the feints of the enemy, using a facsimile of Glaurung to intimidate and cause fear. It doesn’t quite approach the gravity of taking up the one Ring in order to defeat Sauron but it does speak to the fact that Túrin has no second thought in employing a device designed to appropriate some small measure of an evil power (the dragon’s hypnotic gaze) … indeed, one wonders if Túrin would become another Boromir were he transplanted to the Third Age. He would want to take the Ring for good and would invariably fall into utter corruption. The way in which I perceive the inner logic and laws of Tolkien’s universe … there is something innately, terribly wrong with using (or wanting to use) any artifact of the dark side …. regardless of any good intent.

As you may be ( or not) aware, I am fond of finding the pivot upon which a particular story turns. Within this tale of Túrin, it’s my belief that wearing the helm of Hador is that pivot. It seems to set in motion all that is to follow and it marks the place where he truly begins to turn dark. Henceforth all of the negatives are enforced and exaggerated and it begins because Túrin could not, or did not, consider the consequences of wearing such a distinctive piece of armor. It leaves him exposed to Morgoth’s gaze. And he is recognized, captured and taken to Angband.

So it begins .....

:cry:
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Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Post by Alatar »

Wonderful post Sass. There's a lot there that I had never really considered before and I'm particularly struck by the Boromir/Túrin comparison.

I'm also relieved to see that you don't believe everything was predestined. =:)
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Post by superwizard »

Wonderful post Sass! I liked it especially because I've never thought of Túrin that way. I might soon post my ideas on the subject but I need to regroup my thoughts first.
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Post by Athrabeth »

Sassafras wrote:there is no calm in the story, no contrasts; it is such a bombardment of madness and mishaps that I am inclined to feel numb and therefore less affected by the ending.
I can very much understand this reaction, Sass. For me though, it is not so much feeling numb as feeling empty........lightless. I recently realized that when I read or recall the final pages of the tale, I actually picture them in bleak shades of grey, like some kind of mythological film noire.

For years, Túrin’s death was to me, at the very least, a relief (and a release) from the relentless onslaught he initiates of “bad things happening to good people” – like surfacing from the cold depths of murky water; like opening my eyes after a night of dark and disturbing dreams. But now, his death carries a greater weight, and seems somehow wrapped in deeper meaning.

For weeks now, I’ve been mulling over the structure and content of the tales of Túrin and Lúthien. For me, they form a distinct and compelling weave of yin and yang……so many elements of each can be seen as opposite to the other. Both written during the years immediately proceeding Tolkien’s wartime experiences, they seem to me to form a kind of double-sided mirror that reflects his own inner battles of light and darkness. If the tale of Lúthien was inspired by the healing power of love that Edith offered a sick and weary young soldier, did the tale of Túrin find its own bleak heart in the gore and mire of the trenches? I know that the story has some distinct parallels to tales found within the Nordic sagas of the Kalevala and Nibelungenlied, but symbolically, it also seems to speak of a generation betrayed and ruined and destroyed. Death stalks the characters like an enemy sniper, and when it strikes, it is brutal and cruel, and worst of all, senseless. When I drape Túrin in the symbolic robes of that lost generation of young men, doomed to lose everything he holds dear, set on a path of utter destruction for both himself and all he meets along the way, tormented by the blood on his hands, haunted by his own ill-chosen and ill-fated actions; his end takes on a new and profoundly sorrowful meaning. He is no longer “simply” Turambar, the unfortunate and unruly son of Húrin……he is all the lost and guilt-ridden remnants of men that have been used up and thrown out by distant and shadowy powers, finally giving in to their demons and embracing death as the only way out of the darkness that binds them. Even here, the title of Beren’s and Lúthien’s lay –“Leithian”, Release from Bondage – seems to be reflected in a mirror image, terrible and distorted, that is not softened by love and hope, but defined by the bitter sharpness of despair.
And then there are the titles he takes upon himself:

Neithen, the Wronged.
Gorthol, The Dread Helm.
Agarwaen, Son of Úmarth: Bloodstained Son of Ill Fate.
Mormegil, Black Sword.
Turambar, Master of Doom.

This last is arrogance personified.
I used to think so too, Sass, but now…..I’m not so sure (I’m not sure of many of my long-held perceptions of the tale anymore!). There is a desperate poignancy to Túrin’s attempts to define himself through his self-named “incarnations”: a “wanted man” veiling himself in aliases, using any name but his own as some kind of shield from the ever-watchful eyes of Morgoth, cloaking himself (and others) against the fate that has been set to hunt him down, denying the very essence of his own true “self”. Gwindor’s words to him in Nargothrond cut to the terrible heart of the matter: “The doom lies in yourself, not in your name”, but Túrin, I think, is beyond the reach of that wisdom. His last title, for me, now speaks of more than mere personal arrogance (which Túrin, undeniably, has in spades), becoming a far more heart-wrenching reflection of a man who really thinks he has survived the vengeful wrath of Morgoth, who really believes he has walked out of the desolate valley of ill-fate to make a new beginning for himself, who really trusts that he will face nothing worse than his own failure to protect Nargothrond and save Finduilas. When he finally rises from the darkness that engulfs him on the burial mound of Haudh-en-Elleth, he accepts his “rebirth” as a sign that he has been dealt his fate and has passed through it to the other side. But still, for some reason, he cannot claim his own “true name” and stand at last as Túrin, son of Húrin, forgetting, I think, that this carries a great legacy of nobility, strength and “rightness” that is his to either embrace or deny. I wonder how Túrin would answer old Bombadil’s profound question, “Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?” Something tells me that he wouldn’t, sadly, have a clue.

But all that being said, there is, in the end, a biting truth to that final name he takes for himself, for it will be Turambar who deals the death blow to Morgoth, with of all things, the tainted and brooding Black Sword.

Ai! What a tale!
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Post by superwizard »

Wonderful post ath :love: .
Honestly I don't know how to start explaining what I see and understand in this tale of tragedies.
My opinion of Túrin is unlike what other people seem to have. While others here have expressed their disdain for him I feel nothing for the fellow except sympathy. It's true that he was responsible for many tragedies and the deaths of so many people (elves and men) but everything he did was done with the purest intentions at heart. Though many decisions were guided by pride many others were guided by love. Túrin was no monster nor was he evil he was simply a poor lost soul trying to find himself in those troubled times. He was proud but he deserved to be. His ancestors were some of the noblest men in the world who had countless times shown their loyalty and trustworthiness.
Many people forget that while in King Thingol's realm Túrin was very much a minority. No men anywhere to be seen; only elves with their superior abilities and intelligence. How would that feel like?
Everyone I think likes to believe that they would have done better than Túrin, that they would have listened to other’s advice but really I think the only reason people believe such things is because they're afraid-afraid that they would have done just as bad as or worse than Túrin had they been in his situation. Could you have done better? Father dead or imprisoned, home ruined, curse laid upon you? No my friends it wouldn’t have been easy living as Túrin the cursed. And yet even with all those obstacles Túrin still managed to defy Morgoth and his snake.
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Post by Athrabeth »

superwizard wrote:Everyone I think likes to believe that they would have done better than Túrin, that they would have listened to other’s advice but really I think the only reason people believe such things is because they're afraid-afraid that they would have done just as bad as or worse than Túrin had they been in his situation. Could you have done better?
Absolutely not. :)

Very likely differently, but certainly not better. I don't think anyone, Man or Elf, living under such curse would stand a chance in Tolkien's world.

I, for one, don't have disdain for Túrin. Not in the least. As I said in my first post on the chapter, he is far and away the most compellingly real character in the Sil, and as such, he has depths that I find very intriguing. My reaction to him goes beyond "liking" or "disliking", really.....it's very difficult to describe, actually (much like you said!).

I think another layer of understanding for this complex character is added by reading the Narn in Unfinished Tales. The Túrin of that longer, more detailed tale, is quite different for me than the one in the Sil, as is the curse he lives under. He touches my heart on quite another level, as his actions and choices are related more clearly, and the workings of the curse itself are revealed as being far more intrusive.

More than Túrin's character, though, I think it is the mood of the tale itself that I find so difficult to come to terms with. As Sassy wrote, it is a virtual bombardment of dark and horrifying misfortune, and one that for me, is quite different than anything else Tolkien wrote. There are no glorious or noble deaths, no acts of meaningful sacrifice that stir the heart to some kind of hope. The ends of all the main characters are coldly and brutally rendered. No where else in the Sil.....not even in the stark passages of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, is death and despair so enveloping and inescapable. In that alone, I think Tolkien masterfully lets his readers "feel" the weight of Morgoth's terrible power.

Well.....there is more that I would like to say, but I'm packing for a much anticipated winter holiday and must away! :horse:

Hopefully, I'll be back in a few days, posting from my favourite little internet cafe......I wonder if the warmth of Mexico will be able to chase away the chill of this chapter?
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