The Cinemacon footage

For discussion of the upcoming films based on The Hobbit and related material, as well as previous films based on Tolkien's work
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Post by vison »

Primula Baggins wrote:I was assuming they were talking about the BBC's long habit of shooting all interiors on videotape (and often shooting "exteriors" on tape in a studio with a painted backdrop). The effect was like American soap operas, which had the same constraints.

I don't think they were talking about the quality of the shows that were shot that way, which includes all the BBC adaptations of classic literature, and all of Doctor Who before its recent revival. Much brilliant, brilliant stuff.
Not too long ago I watched The Pallisers (made ages ao but still wonderful with all its faults) and the look of it was pretty bad, especially the exteriors (which were NOT shot in a studio, but at various great houses).

I find the sound is often poor on English shows, too.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I was thinking of The Pallisers, actually—all the scenes on various verandas in Switzerland, including some of my absolute favorite; but it's videotape and the "lake" is a painted scrim. But the film when they actually did go outside was usually pretty grainy.

However, none of that hurts the really good, well-acted story. Oh, and the amazing costumes helped. The BBC's finest production value for many years.

The sound is terrible on some old Doctor Whos. But after all these years I find that tubby, blurry soundtrack, and the low-budget (often organ only) score, just make me settle in for a good time. :D

So maybe I'm not doomed to have serious problems with 48 fps, whatever it looks like. And I do bet it will look more "acceptable" when the film actually appears in theaters.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Galin »

Elentári wrote:On the subject of posts at TORn Darkstone did a little research and discovered that some of the bunny-sled/bird poop ideas are not without precedent within Tolkien's beloved Norse mythology:

Norse mythology is full of silly and ridiculous draft animals. Freya rode into battle in a wagon pulled by two kitty cats. (Big kitty cats, but kitty cats nonetheless.) Thor drove into battle behind two goats. Frey rode a boar!

...

BTW, Thor had a few adventures while having a giant's metal weapon point broke off in the middle of his forehead.

Also, Odin went around with a couple of ravens, Huginn and Muninn (Thought and Memory), riding around on his shoulders. As a result, his shoulders were liberally splattered with "Mistletoe", literally "branch dung", aka, "bird poop". Keep that translation in mind next time someone asks you to close your eyes so they can kiss you under the mistletoe.

Finally, hares pulling sledges is mentioned in Tolkien's beloved Finnish myths.
Seems the team has done some homework after all, and I personally think GDT was the driving force behind these ideas - remember the "Thorn"/Thorin helmet controversy? He got that from the "Thorn" rune (Þ, þ) for "Th"
I wish Darkstone had actually referenced these descriptions in more detail. I recall a piece of a hone stuck in Donner's head (and see below on the 'god-nails' for example).

And, well Thor is a god of course.
Skáldskaparmál

'(...) Hrungnir lifted up the hone in both hands and cast it against him; it struck the hammer in flight, and the hone burst in sunder: one part fell to the earth, and thence are come all the flint-rocks; the other burst on Thor's head, so that he fell forward to the earth. But the hammer Mjöllnir struck Hrungnir in the middle of the head, and smashed his skull into small crumbs, and he fell forward upon Thor, so that his foot lay over Thor's neck. Thjálfi struck at Mökkurkálfi, and he fell with little glory. Thereupon Thjálfi went over to Thor and would have lifted Hrungnir's foot off him, but could not find sufficient strength. Straightway all the Æsir came up, when they, learned that Thor was fallen, and would have lifted the foot from off him, and could do nothing. Then Magni came up, son of Thor and Járnsaxa: he was then three nights old; he cast the foot of Hrungnir off Thor, and spake: 'See how ill it is, father, that I came so late: I had struck this giant dead with my fist, methinks, if I had met with him.' Thor arose and welcomed his son, saying that he should surely become great; 'And I will give thee,' he said, the horse Gold-Mane, which Hrungnir possessed.' Then Odin spake and said that Thor did wrong to give the good horse to the son of a giantess, and not to his father.



XXV. Frá Gróu völu

"Thor went home to Thrúdvangar, and the hone remained sticking in his head. Then came the wise woman who was called Gróa, wife of Aurvandill the Valiant: she sang her spells over Thor until the hone was loosened. But when Thor knew that, and thought that there was hope that the hone might be removed, he desired to reward Gróa for her leech-craft and make her glad, and told her these things: that he had waded from the north over Icy Stream and had borne Aurvandill in a basket on his back from the north out of Jötunheim. And he added for a token, that one of Aurvandill's toes had stuck out of the basket, and became frozen; wherefore Thor broke it off and cast it up into the heavens, and made thereof the star called Aurvandill's Toe. Thor said that it would not be long ere Aurvandill came home: but Gróa was so rejoiced that she forgot her incantations, and the hone was not loosened, and stands yet in Thor's head. Therefore it is forbidden to cast a hone across the floor, for then the hone is stirred in Thor's head. Thjódólfr of Hvin has made a song after this tale in the Haustlöng. It says there:

(...)'


Also, in what Runo can we find the rabbit sledge? I have Kalevala but it's a bit long to re-read if the reference is but a sentence or two, and I would be interested in the context myself (incidentally I don't think goats or a boar are silly, although these things are subjective of course).

Anyway... OK Tolkien's beloved Norse or Finnish mythology. And? Is the intended implication that Tolkien would have known of these things and thus approved of their injection in a film adaptation of his tale? Of if we can find something in these mythologies -- as opposed to mere Jacksonian invention -- it necessarily belongs in a 'faithful' adaptation of Tolkien's tale?


To my mind all Darkstone has done is point out that these things are not mere modern invention (from GDT or anyone) and can be found in myths and legends -- from very different stories and contexts compared to Tolkien's The Hobbit. Tolkien knew and loved plenty of myths and tales, and when we swim out of those very general waters, do we know, for instance, that he would not have been furious with this (theoretical in a sense, at this point, before final cut) specific depiction of Radagast, or putting an axe into the head of one of his Dwarves?

Of course we don't know his reaction either way, but the point is that this sort of 'homework' only goes so far in my opinion, and that the idea of injecting something into The Hobbit from a myth or tale Tolkien himself knew or loved opens a very wide door in my opinion.


__________

The myth of the duel between Thor and Hrungnir ends with small piece of whetstone embedded in the god's head. This may be linked to Lapp practice of driving an iron or steel nail into the head of an image of the Thunder God, in order to use it as a source of fire.... The whetstone of the giant, encountering the iron hammer of the god, could be equivalent to kindling of fire with flint and steel. Thor's temple is also associated with fire in the Kjalnesinga Saga, in that altar said to be be made of iron on top - the place for the fire, which was never allowed to go out. Link to Thor's power over lightning - the fire from heaven.

http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/sp_thorwch.html

(...) H.R. Ellis-Davidson also mentions the "god-nails" in the pillars of Thórólfr's temple, comparing them to the seventeenth-century Lappish thunder-god images which held hammers and had an iron nail and a bit of flint driven into the head for striking fire. She suggests that the 'god-nails' might have been used for striking ritual fire, and also have been connected with the bit of whetstone left in Thórr's head after his battle with Hrungnir (Gods and Myths of Northern Europe, pp. 78-79). If this is so, it would strengthen our understanding of the God/esses as taking part in our religion on every level--even the most physical, where Thorr stands as the earthly giver of the hallowed hof-fires!
http://www.ravenkindred.com/June94/idol.html
Last edited by Galin on Sat May 05, 2012 4:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Tolkien, of course, will not be watching these films. We will be. Regardless of the source, or possible source, I can't imagine finding the ax in the head to be anything other than an annoying distraction. Ditto for the birds pooping in Radagast's beard. The jackrabbit sled, on the other hand, I don't have any problem with. I kinda like the idea, actually.
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Post by Inanna »

I hate all three ideas - why do we need them? What purpose do they serve in the story? Friggin' annoying.
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Post by axordil »

Inanna wrote:I hate all three ideas - why do we need them? What purpose do they serve in the story?
Entertaining the 95% of the movie audience who aren't purists.
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Post by Inanna »

axordil wrote:
Inanna wrote:I hate all three ideas - why do we need them? What purpose do they serve in the story?
Entertaining the 95% of the movie audience who aren't purists.
How does adding a sled pulled by rabbits entertain the non-purists? The non-purists will also enjoy a story well told - we all enjoy movies that are well told, keeps unnecessary nonsense to a minimum, and which are not based on books, right?
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Post by Galin »

axordil wrote:
Inanna wrote:I hate all three ideas - why do we need them? What purpose do they serve in the story?
Entertaining the 95% of the movie audience who aren't purists.
My answer is that we don't need them, and I can't think of anything about the medium of film that makes them necessary. And if entertaining those who aren't 'purists' is their purpose... talk about opening an even wider door than injecting 'details cherry picked from mythologies' Tolkien loved!


I find Aurvandill's toe as a star entertaining enough -- and as it hails from a Tolkien-beloved mythology, well there we go -- the non purists shouldn't care much about that whole Eärendil matter. And hey maybe 'Galadriel Hairdresser' can pronounce Aurvandill correctly!

:P
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Post by axordil »

Inanna wrote:
axordil wrote:
Inanna wrote:I hate all three ideas - why do we need them? What purpose do they serve in the story?
Entertaining the 95% of the movie audience who aren't purists.
How does adding a sled pulled by rabbits entertain the non-purists? The non-purists will also enjoy a story well told - we all enjoy movies that are well told, keeps unnecessary nonsense to a minimum, and which are not based on books, right?
Because it's cool, different, visually engaging, and meshes with the rest of the depiction of the character in the movie. Next question? :D

What you find unnecessary nonsense is going to be someone else's favorite part. Maybe many someones. De gustibus...
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Post by axordil »

Galin wrote:
axordil wrote:
Inanna wrote:I hate all three ideas - why do we need them? What purpose do they serve in the story?
Entertaining the 95% of the movie audience who aren't purists.
My answer is that we don't need them, and I can't think of anything about the medium of film that makes them necessary. And if entertaining those who aren't 'purists' is their purpose... talk about opening an even wider door than injecting 'details cherry picked from mythologies' Tolkien loved!


I find Aurvandill's toe as a star entertaining enough -- and as it hails from a Tolkien-beloved mythology, well there we go -- the non purists shouldn't care much about that whole Eärendil matter. And hey maybe 'Galadriel Hairdresser' can pronounce Aurvandill correctly!
Did I miss a page of discussion?
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Post by WampusCat »

I don't consider embellishments necessary, but I recall a conversation with one of my son's friends (20ish) who loved the LOTR movies but had not yet read the books. I was shocked to hear that everything she loved most was the stuff that made purists squirm: Gimli humor, Aragorn angst, Sam leaving, Gandalf whacking Denethor ...

Obviously Jackson knows how to please multiple audiences.
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Post by axordil »

WampusCat wrote:I don't consider embellishments necessary, but I recall a conversation with one of my son's friends (20ish) who loved the LOTR movies but had not yet read the books. I was shocked to hear that everything she loved most was the stuff that made purists squirm: Gimli humor, Aragorn angst, Sam leaving, Gandalf whacking Denethor ...

Obviously Jackson knows how to please multiple audiences.
Bingo. If anything we're fortunate the squirmy stuff is as rare as it is. :)

The other thing to bear in mind: if word got out that this was going to be a devotedly faithful rendition, it would not generate as much word of mouth as tossing chunks of raw meat out now and again. Everything that's coming out is according to a marketing plan, of which this discussion is the desired outcome.
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Post by WampusCat »

:shock: We are pawns of the Marketing Overlords?
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Post by Galin »

axordil wrote: Did I miss a page of discussion?
Which means?
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Post by River »

Honestly, a sled pulled by bunnies is right in line with the somewhat silly tone of The Hobbit.

The axe in the head and the bird crap I could do without...though the bird crap is reminding me of Merlin's portrayal in The Once and Future King.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

River wrote:Honestly, a sled pulled by bunnies is right in line with the somewhat silly tone of The Hobbit.
I agree, and I also can see it being consistent with Radagast's character. One can argue against the idea of including him at all, but once that decision is made, it is necessary to flesh his character out.

For myself, I only object to things that either are contrary to some really important theme or tone or characterization of Tolkien's, or simply is stupid or otherwise unpalatable in general. Or both.

My recent experience of seeing the movie John Carter, based on A Princess of Mars has really insulated me against complaints about Jackson's Middle-earth films. In comparison, Jackson is a paragon of faithfulness. Of course, the source material he is working with is a lot better too.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I'm glad I escaped that experience, Voronwë.

River, the little we see of Radagast in LotR has always reminded me of T. H. White's Merlin, especially the Merlin of the first book during Wart's training.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by axordil »

Galin wrote:
axordil wrote: Did I miss a page of discussion?
Which means?
I didn't follow your post at all.
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Post by Elentári »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
River wrote:Honestly, a sled pulled by bunnies is right in line with the somewhat silly tone of The Hobbit.
I agree, and I also can see it being consistent with Radagast's character. One can argue against the idea of including him at all, but once that decision is made, it is necessary to flesh his character out.

For myself, I only object to things that either are contrary to some really important theme or tone or characterization of Tolkien's, or simply is stupid or otherwise unpalatable in general. Or both.
I concur...

So we can agree that these seemingly weird and wacky ideas do at least have a mythological basis which Tolkien would have been aware of…whether he would have wanted them included in an adaptation of his work is another matter!

Moreover, these recent revelations of content would indicate that GDT/PJ are most definitely playing up the whimsical, faerie aspects of the book – something which many called for when the films were first announced. Equally we can see that the films will have the darker, scarier tones of LotR, particularly with the Nazgûl and White Council storyline. Will this juxtaposition work or will the differences be too jarring, leaving us with a mishmash of conflicting ideas? Peter is apparently trying to cover all bases with this in an attempt to keep everyone happy - something which is usually impossible

It will be interesting to see if a delecate balance can be achieved…
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Post by narya »

axordil wrote:
Galin wrote:
axordil wrote: Did I miss a page of discussion?
Which means?
I didn't follow your post at all.
I'm a little out of my depth here, but fortunately, there's Wikipedia. Not sure if this is what was being talked about, but it's interesting, none the less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurvandil
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