The nature of your deity

[axordil]

not something that you are born with

I have come to believe the opposite: some of us are born with a natural neurological proclivity for faith, and others with a natural neurological proclivity against it. One may of course choose to move contrary to either natural proclivity for a variety of reasons, which explains the broad variety of religious experiences.

I'm not sure if this makes any difference, really. I do wonder what James would have made of neurological psychology.

[Lidless]

Prejudices against left-handers abound, for throughout history, lefties have been considered inferior. Centuries ago, the Catholic Church declared left-handed people to be servants of the Devil. For generations, left-handers who attended Catholic schools were forced to become right-handed. Only a few decades ago in Japan, left-handedness in a wife was sufficient grounds for divorce. The wedding ring is placed on the left hand in order to chase away evil spirits that may haunt the marriage. In Arab nations, the right hand is used to touch parts of the body above the waist, while the left hand is used for below the navel. Bedouins segregate the women to the left side of the tent to keep the right side free for the men. (Making it fairly obvious to determine which gender is considered more important.) Natives on the Guinea coast never touch their left thumbs to their beer mugs, in the belief that it would poison the beverage. Maori women weave ceremonial cloth with the right hand, because to use the left hand would profane and curse the cloth - the penalty for using the left hand is death. African tribes along the Niger river do not allow their women to prepare food with the left hand for fear of poisonous sorcery.

Religion has played an important part in oppressing the image of the left hand. In Matthew 6:3 of the Bible, Jesus instructed his followers that when they do charitable things, to "not let thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth." Jesus also expressed the following sentiments regarding the Judgment Day. "And before Him shall be gathered all nations; and He shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats; and He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...' Then shall He say into them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...' In the Old Testament, God told Jonah the wicked city of Nineveh contained people so sinful they "cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand," leaving us to infer that they cannot discern between good or evil. Greeks, in their worship of Zeus, posted sentries to watch people entering the holy temples and make sure they entered with their right foot, because entrance with the left foot was thought to curse the building. Also, the Greeks took care to never put their left leg over the right while crossing their legs. In Hindu rituals, followers are required at times to circle people and/or objects three times, from left to right to cleanse them. Even languages from around the world show how civilizations prefer the right over the left. The word "left" comes from an Old English word meaning "weak" or "worthless" The Italian word "mancino" is translated to "deceitful"...as well as "left". "No ser zurdo" is a Spanish phrase meaning "to be very clever", which is literally translated to mean "not to be left-handed". In English, the word "adroit" is commonly used to mean "proper" or "correct". In French, the word "adroit" means "right". The English usage of the word "gauche" is accepted as meaning "clumsy", or "awkward". In French, it is translated to mean "left". Our word "dexterous" comes from the Roman word "dexter", which in turn means "right". The Roman word for "left" is "sinister", and the phrase meaning "masturbation" is translated to "left-handed whore". "Linkisch" is German for "awkward" and "left".

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Natives on the Guinea coast never touch their left thumbs to their beer mugs, in the belief that it would poison the beverage.

Having just the spent the weekend with a "native" from the Guinea coast visiting us who happens to be the most impressive human being that I have ever had the pleasure to know, I will assume that your comments were not actually meant to be as deeply offensive as I found them.

[yovargas]

Why would that be offensive? There are all kinds of little superstitions around the world.

[TheEllipticalDisillusion]

I thought the post about left-handedness was informative.

[Pearly Di]

The thread appears to be osgiliating ...

Aaaaanyway ...

I think that there is a tendency among intellectuals (like me!) to retreat into abstraction, and lose the vital personal relationship which is at the heart of Christianity; also abstraction sounds more intelligent when defending oneself against skeptics. But it can be a pitfall.

Yes, heart knowledge is crucial besides head knowledge, Tar-Palantir, when it comes to our relationship with God.

All concepts of God are inadequate - and that applies equally to abstract concepts as to anthropomorphism. It depends which is your own natural tendency that needs to be counteracted...

I quite agree.

Welcome, btw.

[JewelSong]

The left-handed post was informative and even entertaining...but this is vison's thread in which she specifically is asking people to talk about their view of God.

So maybe we could get back to the topic? Unless vison doesn't mind the diversion into various superstitions and archaic beliefs around the world!

ETA: I see Pearl beat me to it...

[Maria]

I'm left handed in some tasks, right handed in others-- and not just with tools that are crafted for right handers. I throw frizbees with my right hand and hammer with it as well. I can't write well with my right hand, though. I'm not as clumsy writing right handed as with writing with my feet, though. It's interesting, however: the nerves cross somewhere in your spine, and I can write better with my right foot than my left one.

I wouldn't know if I have any kind of pitch at all, let alone perfect. Being almost completely musically illiterate- I just don't know.

I kind of wonder what it's like to have better emotional shields and to be able to speak in public, or to not be overwhelmed when someone nearby is emoting strongly. To enjoy being the center of attention. Even as a child I couldn't stand my own birthday parties because everyone was *looking* at me! That's why I like messageboard interaction so much. The act of me saying something and the act of you guys reading it is so disconnected that I'm not shocked into silence by the attention. Groups of more than two or three effectively strike me dumb, in RL.

I was raised an atheist, and spent most of my adult life in that mindset- so I understand the viewpoint. Allowing myself to believe in supernatural & paranormal stuff required some serious alterations in how I percieved the world, but the evidence accumulated until I could no longer honestly maintain that frame of mind. I had to seek outside the box of rational thought for the understanding of the irrational things that happened to me.

Various religious theories held some of the answers, as did some chi energy healing techniques and some psi stuff. I've got my own theories about how it all fits together and I'm the first person to admit that I might be completely wrong .... but I've also come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter. Whatever happens, happens. All we can do is try to meet the challenges that face us in the best way possible. Whether there is an afterlife, or reincarnation or nothing when we die, it's what we make of this life now that matters. Whether we have free will or are merely puppets of our higher selves, or are fulfilling roles in a massive entertainment venue- all we can do is act as if it is real and do the best we can.

I still think it's a lousy set up, where the prevailing theories say to avoid killing, but where the only way we can live is to kill other living things (is that an impossible contradiction or what?) - but it's the only game in town- so there isn't much we can do about it. It's either play the game or get out.

edit: crossposted with all the anti-osgilliation posts- apologies!

[axordil]

or are fulfilling roles in a massive entertainment venue

I think I'm having latency issues. My ping is off the charts.

Sorry, couldn't resist the MMORPG joke. Carry on.

/osgiliate

[Primula Baggins]

Well, there is a distinction for most people between killing plants and animals in order to eat, and killing human beings for any reason. The former is, as you say, part of the game. I can imagine a future where some people who now might be vegans take the further step of eating only artificial food that has never been alive, even as a plant.

Eating animals and plants has never bothered me, though I think we ought to do so responsibly: don't waste food, try to choose foods that do less damage to the environment and have to be transported less far, choose meat from food animals that have been treated as humanely as possible. For me this comes from my faith, which requires responsible stewardship of the earth, but it certainly can come from any system of ethics.

I believe Voronwë's response to Lidless's post came from the use of the word "natives," which has a neutral meaning but also has a long history of being used in a demeaning way to describe black people in Africa specifically.

[Nin]

O/T: I don't see anything near to offensive in Lidless post either. Since when is it offensive to talk about customs and beliefs of other parts of the world? Or is it in the sense that anything different from our world would be less than what we think, so it should not mentionned? But then I would rather find that vision of the world offensive.

Anyway back on the topic and to some of the questions rised.

Pearly Di, the question about praying is very serious. How often also in the prayer threads you see people asking ot pray for the success of a certain enterprise or how often have people have prayed for victories in war? I habe gone through situations when loved ones were on the edge of death or when my new-born son's life ws in danger - and could not pray. It did not bring any comfort to me, on the contrary. (the same for mourning, by the way)

Do I think that people who pray don't think that they are responsible for their actions? Well, in some cases I wonder - like the religious parents about whom the article spoke to which Prim linked the other day in another thread. How can they not treat their child and wait for a healing by prayer? They put the power of action they have away from themselves and I see that as putting responsibility away. Maybe this is only true for fanatics, but the whole process of praying is so alien to me that I really wonder.

What I can understand - but maybe this is totally wrong: when life is hard, talking to a friend helps. So if you have a relationship with God, does it help simply to talk to him - like to a friend?

Oh, and what Di said about the world without her deity being bleak: I feel the same if I think my world with a God. It does not feel right to put a wrong base on the world, like a house with wrong fundations. It's an idea which makes me shudder. But this is only my world.

Axordil....

I have come to believe the opposite: some of us are born with a natural neurological proclivity for faith, and others with a natural neurological proclivity against it. One may of course choose to move contrary to either natural proclivity for a variety of reasons, which explains the broad variety of religious experiences.

I'm not sure if this makes any difference, really. I do wonder what James would have made of neurological psychology.

But does that simply place neurobiology in the place of God? So, some get the revelation and are "the chosen" people if it is by biology or by words... I don't believe in such a power of genetic predisposition.

[axordil]

But does that simply place neurobiology in the place of God? So, some get the revelation and are "the chosen" people if it is by biology or by words... I don't believe in such a power of genetic predisposition.

In the place of? No. Does it perhaps change the context in which we examine questions of belief? Yes. I don't think it's debatable that for some people, faith comes easily and naturally, while for others it comes, if it comes at all, only through some extraordinary event. This is more or less what William James observed more than a century ago; he didn't have nMRIs to look at, either.

As to its power--as I said, one can act contrary to a natural proclivity. It's predisposition, not predestination.

[Pearly Di]

Do I think that people who pray don't think that they are responsible for their actions? Well, in some cases I wonder - like the religious parents about whom the article spoke to which Prim linked the other day in another thread. How can they not treat their child and wait for a healing by prayer? They put the power of action they have away from themselves and I see that as putting responsibility away.

Oh, right, I see what you mean: that tragic case is a very obvious example of people using their spirituality as an excuse for passivity, somehow seeing this as more 'godly'. It's using prayer in a way that ignores our God-given common sense. I would describe those parents as being horribly naive and grossly irresponsible. It's no wonder that atheists go: at this kind of thing. I do myself.

I believe it's right to pray for healing and take one's medication.

What I can understand - but maybe this is totally wrong: when life is hard, talking to a friend helps. So if you have a relationship with God, does it help simply to talk to him - like to a friend?

Yes. That is not all of what prayer means, but it's certainly a very big part of it.

[WampusCat]

I suspect that V's problem with that sentence was the way it generalizes about a group of people in a way that makes them seem backward and ignorant, especially since he has personal knowledge of individuals in that group.

It's the same way I would react if someone said, "Christians in the American South use snake-handling in their worship services." Yes, some do. But the statement implies that it's common, which is definitely not the case.

I will answer the initial questions of this interesting thread later.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Since when is it offensive to talk about customs and beliefs of other parts of the world?

It is not offensive at all when the discussion reflects a genuine interest in understanding customs and beliefs from other parts of the world. But it is offensive when it reflects an ignorance born out of the arrogant belief in western superiority that is nothing short of cultural imperialism, and when I see it happen, I will not hesitate to point it out, even when I fully realize that doing so will not be popular.

(Please note that this is solely poster Voronwë speaking here, not Thain Voronwë.)

[axordil]

Actually, V-man, the litany of lefty lore seemed pretty ecumenical to me, given the Biblical references and the linguistic notes on European languages. I saw no Western Cultural Imperialism, I saw comparative anthropology that included the "West" as a subject too, and not one with any claim to superiority--certainly not when it comes to ingrained attitudes towards southpaws.

[nerdanel]

Left-handed poster nel here:

Actually, I thought that Lidless' post made the Westerners look worst of all. It highlighted the ignorant, misinformed prejudices against lefties historically held by the Catholic Church and its schools, mentioned in both the New Testament and the Hebrew Bible (implicating Jews as well), as well as Greek religious practices. Europe didn't fare much better linguistically, with Old English, Italian, Spanish, modern English, French, German, and the Romans again being implicated.

The Hindus, Japanese, and Arabs were also identified as having problematic religious or social practices. And then finally, three African groups who in whole or part must harbor similar biases against the left hand were also identified.

What I took from Lidless' post is that prejudice against left-handed people and use of the left hand extends throughout history and across cultures, with religion sometimes but not always complicit in the practice. I see no evidence of Western superiority in a post that implicates far more Western groups in this sort of ignorant prejudice than it does non-Western groups. (I should be clear that as a staunch lefty, I find anti-left-handedness fairly incendiary as well as nonsensical, and I don't feel particular interest in "understanding" why any group practices it, Western, Eastern, or in between.)

[Maria]

I believe it's right to pray for healing and take one's medication.

And I believe it's right to maximize one's potential for the body to heal itself through meditation and proper channelling of chi energy. Only as a last resort should one such as I take medication, because something about my body chemistry is unusual and I ALWAYS get the weird, nearly unknown side effects. I'm better off with alternative medicines and energy healing. st00pfid drugs! I recently let a doctor talk me into taking Zantac and after 5 days I started having mini convulsions, as well as serious mental side effects.

Medications just are not the answer for some people. Not that prayer is going to help, either, unless one is really in the zone.

I should just drop out of this conversation. I'm not a standard issue human. What works for me probably won't for a lot of you, both metaphysically and medically.

[Frelga]

Serioisly, V, that was weird. Lidless gave an encyclopedic overview of superstitions around the world, pretty much indiscriminately. You can hardly say he singled out Guineans in a paragraph that included customs from every continent.

[Teremia]

I agree with Ax on the neurobiological predisposition -- I do think some brains are wired in ways more conducive to religious faith than others. Of course, if your brain happens to be wired in ONE way, it's very hard to imagine what it would be like if it were wired OTHERWISE! Hence, perhaps, this thread.

I find I feel like someone whose wiring made her long for faith -- but also made it almost impossible actually to "believe" things in particular. Don't know whether the laughing or crying icon is more appropriate here!

OT to Voronwë: when I was in Nepal, my friend was always being scolded for taking things with the left hand (she's a lefty). I think the word was "jhutto" -- some sort of bad/dirty connotations. It was explained to us that the left hand was the toileting hand, so it actually WAS more likely to be "dirty."