Revisionism from the source

For discussion of the upcoming films based on The Hobbit and related material, as well as previous films based on Tolkien's work
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SirDennis
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Revisionism from the source

Post by SirDennis »

Thought I would start a different thread rather than spoil the prevailing mood in the general Hobbit thread.

Is it just me, or is this a clear case of revisionism: Hobbit was almost filmed in Britain, director reveals

First of all, who exactly is he revealing this to? The most we heard from PJ up to 2010 was about the union issue. Just when fans thought he had become a recluse and we (the fans) didn't exist, he went directly to the public over the attempted SAG boycott.

Secondly the time frame implied by this passage is suspect:
"The worst time for me was when a huge box arrived in the office... this large cardboard box arrived and they had sent a location scout around England and Scotland to take photographs.
"They literally had the Hobbit script broken down into scenes, and in each scene there were pictures of the Scottish Highlands and England and this and that, to convince us we could easily go over there to shoot the film."
Does Jackson honestly expect us to believe that between the time the boycott was announced and he came out like gangbusters against it, that WB had broken down the script, sent a scout all over the [rugged] Scottish Highlands to find locations, and then put them in a box and delivered them to NZ? Really?

Thirdly, the following quote does not stand up under scrutiny either. IIRC the union withdrew their demands and promised not to interfere with the Hobbit production any more, and at that some time before the "emergency" session of parliament was convened.
In the event, the dispute was settled when New Zealand's conservative government amended labour laws to minimise union representation on set, also offering financial incentives to keep the production in the country.


Finally, doesn't it seem a tidge odd that he would choose a time just days before the premiere to raise this issue again? For instance at a time when fan enthusiasm is likely to be highest and media across the globe most likely to be paying attention? If he hadn't mentioned it, I can assure you I wouldn't be making this post, here or anywhere.

No, it is pretty clear to me, especially if the box of photos story from the first quote is true, that WB was keen on going where incentives were richer (and perhaps pastures were greener), and had been building a case for some time to do so. Yet it was all blamed on the union debacle then and now. How nice on a film about the triumph of the little guy. Jackson is perpetuating the myth that the threat to move was about the union. If that were true, changing their country's laws at the drop of a hat should have been enough for them.

The very idea that the government amended the rights of their citizens and then gave 250 million of their citizens' tax dollars to the production company is outrageous even to contemplate. If the gamble pays off and everyone experiences prosperity for years to come, it is still wrong for Jackson to keep spinning this yarn. Rather he might have just let sleeping dogs lay and console himself with "sometimes you just gotta do whatcha gotta do."

What is that line from Princess Bride? "We are men of action, something something something."
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Thanks SirDennis!

Post by Stranger Wings »

This is most certainly a suspect depiction of events.

Based on this information, the most likely scenario was that Warner Brothers had been lobbying the NZ government for months (including through such threats as showing them plans for a UK shoot), urging them to push through a set of laws making it easier and cheaper for WB to operate in NZ, without fear of labor disputes, etc. When the Australian union thing happened, it simply sped up the process, gave Warners an excellent excuse to make its threats public, and ultimately led to a dramatic change in New Zealand law.

As an aside, the lack of collective bargaining rights in NZ is a travesty, and must be changed.

To my mind, Peter Jackson should be ashamed of himself, and his parroting of such an obviously false version of events.
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Post by SirDennis »

Either he is trying to drive a version of events home for once and for all, or his conscience is bothering him (I know mine is). It really is a harsh footnote to an otherwise illustrious personal history.

Good to see you Shelob.
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Post by Stranger Wings »

SirDennis wrote:Either he is trying to drive a version of events home for once and for all, or his conscience is bothering him (I know mine is). It really is a harsh footnote to an otherwise illustrious personal history.

Good to see you Shelob.
Good to see you too, SirDennis!
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I don't think Jackson is lily white, but I'm not ready to comdemn him either. I think he wants to make movies, his way, in New Zealand, and he'll go along way to stretching things to be able to do that. Honestly, I don't think it is that different than what most of us do, just on a greatly amplified scale and under a much harsher microscope.

Good to have both of you here, btw!
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Post by Stranger Wings »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:I don't think Jackson is lily white, but I'm not ready to comdemn him either. I think he wants to make movies, his way, in New Zealand, and he'll go along way to stretching things to be able to do that. Honestly, I don't think it is that different than what most of us do, just on a greatly amplified scale and under a much harsher microscope.

Good to have both of you here, btw!
Perhaps. But on principle, were a project of mine hindered by reasonable demands from labor elements in civil society, I would most certainly not go along with a strategy that involved stripping a country's work force of the very little labor protections they have. So, I feel quite comfortable judging PJ's character in this case, and I do not find it of the highest quality (just as I judged Roman Polanski for his "above the law" nonsense, despite the fact that I appreciate his work more than PJ's).

But yeah, great to see you both!

:)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Polanski is interesting point of comparison. I agree he is a superior filmmaker, but I also see him as being guilty of far worse than I do Jackson (although I also have some sympathy for the personal tribulations that he has suffered).
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Post by Stranger Wings »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:Polanski is interesting point of comparison. I agree he is a superior filmmaker, but I also see him as being guilty of far worse than I do Jackson (although I also have some sympathy for the personal tribulations that he has suffered).
Agreed. Polanski's actions were much, much worse.

PJ's actions are primarily business-oriented and anti-labor, which is a political stance that one can agree or disagree with. But I don't much like the way he seems to have gone about it...

Though as a person, he seems rather likeable.
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Post by SirDennis »

NZ has had a rough go of it for some years -- most of my life, most of the 20 years I've been aware of the place anyway. My understanding is NZ was the first country in the world to accept a Structural Adjustment Program (SAP) in order to secure financing from the IMF. Really they are still a test case, though many nations have fallen under SAPs since, in spite of what it meant for NZ. It is staggering to think where they might be now if Wellywood hadn't sprung up, a result of chance more so than economic design.

Apparently at the time they agreed to the SAP NZ was in desperate straights, but the SAP meant even further decline in quality of life due to the dismantling of social programs and such (the "catch" when accepting a loan from the IMF). In large part LOTR was their first real taste of the less bitter fruits of Globalisation since falling under the SAP, so I can't hold it against them for pulling out the stops while pinning their hopes on The Hobbit movies.

Actually I can understand the willingness to go to almost any extreme to try to secure prosperity for their nation. (How does a tiny island nation in the middle of the South Pacific survive in the first place, without a willingness to trade at any cost with the outside world? And geez is it expensive to get there for some reason.)

However, I do not like that a man who is revered by so many appears to me to be so willing to mess with perceptions and help throw the rights of others under the bus, making himself very wealthy in the process. I've heard grumblings from sober minded locals that what prosperity the movies have brought (or are expected to bring in future) is fleeting, and has not been spread around so very much as we think. The bulk of the wealth is concentrated in too few hands... certainly it has captivated the country's politicians. I'm not sure -- the handful of people I've spoken with can hardly be called a representative sample -- but my sense is the locals are not very happy that NZ is the poster child for Globalisation. I am not happy that Tolkien's works are being used in such a way, nor as far as I can see, that PJ has any qualms about it.
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Post by SirDennis »

Just an update here:

In this November 27 Radio NZ interview Jackson offhandedly estimates that it would have taken WB 3-4 weeks to pull together the box of alternate location photos. He also says it arrived in the middle of the labour dispute, ahead of WB's visit. This indicates to me that WB was after incentives to stay in NZ well before the union thing. The union thing was just a case of bad timing (unless someone needed a scapegoat, then it was good timing).

He also said that collective bargaining was already illegal in NZ at the time... why legislation needed to be changed remains a mystery to me. (Unless they thought it would make the "it's all the union's fault" story more believable.)

The interview is about 20 minutes long, and quite worthwhile imho. In it PJ answers such questions as: what's next for The Hobbit movies; what's next after The Hobbit movies
Hidden text.
(it is extremely unlikely any further Middle-earth based movies will be made in NZ or anywhere, at least by Jackson/WETA)
; how he see himself in comparison to the global film industry; et al. The part where they talk about the union, and WB seeking incentives starts about 5 minutes to the end.

ps Thanks Shelob and Voronwë. It's good to be back.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Thanks for that, Sir Dennis. I'll give it a listen when I have a block of time.

(I changed your white text to the spoiler text because it was clearly visible, at least on my screen.)
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Post by SirDennis »

Just throwing this on the pile: Helen Kelly responds in a Guardian article

ps: this one drew me out in that other place.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Not sure what you mean by "drew me out in that other place."

I vaguely remember Helen Kelly's role during the dispute, but I'm not going to say anything more unless and until I am able to refresh my memory, lest I say something unfair.
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Post by Stranger Wings »

SirDennis wrote:Just throwing this on the pile: Helen Kelly responds in a Guardian article

ps: this one drew me out in that other place.
"Thrilled" and "relieved" that Warner Brothers worked with the government to strip rights away from actors... That's not the PJ and Fran of the official mythology, is it?
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Post by SirDennis »

No, I don't think so SA.

What is hard for me to believe is that some people who read the Telegraph article (released two days before the premiere) are saying Kelly was being opportunistic with her op-ed in the Guardian, published about 3-4 days later. Selective memory? Wilful ignorance? It was Jackson that brought this back to the spot light. This thread was started at least a couple days before Kelly's piece appeared in the Guardian. It couldn't be clearer.

Actually, I have it on good authority that Kelly's piece was in response to Prime Minister Key's remarks on the day of the premiere. The fight is really between the CTU and the NZ Government. Why Jackson jumped in the middle, picked a side, and continues to proclaim their position, well beyond the need to do so, remains a mystery.
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Post by Stranger Wings »

SirDennis wrote:No, I don't think so SA.

What is hard for me to believe is that some people who read the Telegraph article (released two days before the premiere) are saying Kelly was being opportunistic with her op-ed in the Guardian, published about 3-4 days later. Selective memory? Wilful ignorance? It was Jackson that brought this back to the spot light. This thread was started at least a couple days before Kelly's piece appeared in the Guardian. It couldn't be clearer.

Actually, I have it on good authority that Kelly's piece was in response to Prime Minister Key's remarks on the day of the premiere. The fight is really between the CTU and the NZ Government. Why Jackson jumped in the middle, picked a side, and continues to proclaim their position, well beyond the need to do so, remains a mystery.
That's exactly the thing. If PJ simply kept quiet about it, stated that it was being WB and CTU, and didn't continue to parrot anti-labor views, even so long after the incident, I would be a lot more sympathetic to him.
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