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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:50 am 
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Throw me a rope.
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There's fear of the Other, which is deep in the human psyche, and then there are the very tangible triggers of economic inequality, resulting often in social dysfunction and educational breakdown, which also make people look for someone to blame (deepening suspicion of the Other) and for someone to be a saviour.
The rise of fascism in Europe occurred after the economic and social upheaval of the great depression when so many felt left behind and overlooked, and that is the soil for many autocratic regimes in modern history.

If you want to beat the neo Nazis, the white supremacists, don't give them the soil to grow. Make sure everyone has the chance for a living wage; make sure quality education is available to all; make sure social support is given to families at risk of generational dysfunction. In other words, dont allow your citizens to sink into poverty and ignorance, because then everyone else becomes Other and anger feeds ignorance, disaffection and sociopathy.



Sent from a tiny phone keyboard via Tapatalk - typos inevitable.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:36 am 
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Meanwhile...
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Impenitent wrote:
If you want to beat the neo Nazis, the white supremacists, don't give them the soil to grow. Make sure everyone has the chance for a living wage; make sure quality education is available to all; make sure social support is given to families at risk of generational dysfunction. In other words, dont allow your citizens to sink into poverty and ignorance, because then everyone else becomes Other and anger feeds ignorance, disaffection and sociopathy.


Come to think, Soviets had literally all of that, plus a government enforced policy of mixing up ethnic groups. Actual Nazis weren't much of a thing, given that the memory of what they have was still fresh in my generation and probably the one after, but various nationalist movements sprang up the moment the pressure of USSR-wide authoritarian regime was removed.

What Putin is cultivating now is what feeds on the same dung heap - the idea of a national destiny based on some imagined inherent superiority and loyalty to the strong leader, with the national religion thrown in. Less genocide than the actual Nazis, so that's a plus.

Point being, no, education and social support don't magically fix prejudice.

Besides, what do we do in the meantime?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Just wanted to throw in an interesting side issue here, that is one of the root causes of the whites getting antsy.

I've been working a lot on my family tree. All the generations previous to my own (boomers) had many, many children. Then the pill came along and changed the face of the world.

Now, when I was in university, one of the things I had to do for my ecology courses was model population growth. It was my first experience with computers and punch cards. :help: I do NOT remember it fondly!

Anyway, replacement population, which is necessary to achieve population stability with ZERO growth is just over 2 offspring per family (the exact number depends on the death rate, and is slightly different depending on the country, or in biology, the species). Most of the developed, primarily white nations have fallen below that, and it's been that way for a number of years. What happens in biological terms when that's the birth rate? Well, it's an inescapable fact: you are going to go extinct in a couple of generations.

What countries/populations still have a high birth rate? Third world countries, especially the Muslim countries, and the non-white countries (India and Africa.) Look it up: the figures are out there on the Web for everyone to see.

If you want to feed paranoia in the white population, especially whites who don't fee comfortable around anyone whose skin is a different colour, or speaks a different language, just show them those statistics...

The so-called 'first world' nations are going to look very, very different in 50 to 100 years. If they want to continue to grow and prosper, their labour force is going to have to come from outside the country. And there's not a damn thing they can do to change it, except learn to get along with those who have a different ethnic background.

Personally, I am grateful to our former P.M., Pierre Trudeau, who foresaw this, and began encouraging immigration during his tenure in office. Not that it hasn't been a bit of a cultural shock for me, having grown up in a society that was 99.9% white... :D I remember boarding the Scarborough LRT late one evening in the 1990s, and finding I was the only white person in the car! :shock:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Living in hope
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It'll take more than a couple of generations of 1.9 children per family to wipe out a whole subpopulation, Sunny. What will probably have more effect is interracial marriages/parenting, which is something else racists hate and fear. The time will probably come when having pale skin is a rare thing, but it won't be because white people died off; it will be because almost everyone is thoroughly mixed-race. "Race" won't even be a concept anymore, and I say good riddance.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:17 pm 
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To follow that line of thought, the "white genocide" thing is even less logical than the norm for the white supremacists. IF you claim that some "races" are inherently superior to others AND you see that women choose different men over you THEN maybe you are not the pinnacle of evolution you claim to be?

But yeah, right now humanity has to deal with overpopulation, not extinction from low birth rates.

On that tangent - I learned recently that one of the arguments in support of standardized testing (like SAT) was that it would show that white people were naturally smarter than everyone else. It didn't.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:32 pm 
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I heard someone on NPR trying really hard to justify the white genocide thing. He refused to listen when it was pointed out that no one is trying to systematically kill white people. I think he just liked the phrasing because it sound so dire and scary, even if he's cheapening a term into drivel.

From a biological perspective, out-crossing is a really good thing. It keeps recessive traits to a minimum. Why do you want to that? Because so many of them are disabling or lethal.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:23 pm 
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not something I would recommend
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Can I point out that, as per the article I previously posted, there are people out there actually doing research on why people join, and why they leave, hate groups, so we don't actually have to guess and theorize? I'm sure there's no perfect answer given that humans are complicated and hard to predict but still, it seems that there are some answers out there.

It tends to be people who feel very isolated and who's lives feel purposeless and out of their control. Hate groups exploit that to make these people feel like they can have a purpose and be a part of something. (Much like religious cults, it occurs to me.) Muslim terrorists have been excellent at spreading the sense that the world is chaotic and out of control, which I suspect is largely why these groups are growing.

I found it particularly interesting that the researchers had found that many of these people didn't even have any particularly strong opinions about race or whatever until they joined the groups. They don't join the groups because they are filled with hate, they become hate-filled so they can belong to the group.

Given this, the idea that you can win these people over by giving them empathy, showing them that they aren't isolated, and helping them find a more constructive purpose in their lives makes a lot of sense. That there are groups out there trying to do just that and having success against the hate groups makes me feel pretty good about saying this approach is more successful than violence.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:36 pm 
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Wrong within normal parameters
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Seems relevant:
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... sm/565076/

(ignore misleading headline)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:50 am 
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Did the study look into *why* they were isolated?

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:28 am 
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yovargas wrote:
Can I point out that, as per the article I previously posted, there are people out there actually doing research on why people join, and why they leave, hate groups, so we don't actually have to guess and theorize? I'm sure there's no perfect answer given that humans are complicated and hard to predict but still, it seems that there are some answers out there.


That article is always relevant, but not exactly welcome when we are dealing with people who are so reprehensible that we actually have people advocating initiating violence against them and getting away with it as if they weren't advocating criminal acts.

The last thing most people want to do is see the humanity in those they oppose, especially in as divisive an environment as we have today.

yovargas wrote:
I found it particularly interesting that the researchers had found that many of these people didn't even have any particularly strong opinions about race or whatever until they joined the groups. They don't join the groups because they are filled with hate, they become hate-filled so they can belong to the group.


It makes sense. The appeal of such a group is "Join us and we will tell you why you failed. It isn't your fault, it is the fault of the hated other."

yovargas wrote:
Given this, the idea that you can win these people over by giving them empathy, showing them that they aren't isolated, and helping them find a more constructive purpose in their lives makes a lot of sense. That there are groups out there trying to do just that and having success against the hate groups makes me feel pretty good about saying this approach is more successful than violence.


That's too sensible. We're not supposed to use sensible solutions in politics.

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