Escaping the Echo Chamber

[Inanna]

I agree he should be able to wear a kilt!

[elengil]

I agree he should be able to wear a kilt!

Ditto!

I admit that some men in suits are very but I can also absolutely appreciate the aesthetic appeal of a man in, say, Carharts and a t-shirt or a kilt and vest.

Basically: I can appreciate the male aesthetic without being completely rendered incapable of doing other things or being distracted beyond functionality.

[River]

Straight woman here. Men's shapes are discernible in their clothes. If a guy is fit, you can tell. Some of them make sure of that, actually. Others are more demure but you can still tell. But a lot of the disparity in acceptable surface area of visible skin comes from the days when men were meant to be heard and women to be gazed upon (i.e., fashion was one of the few acceptable means a woman had of expressing herself).

Funny story about distractions. Shorts seem to be much more acceptable as professional-ish menswear among male European academics than in the Western hemisphere. This lead to some extreme trauma among both my male and female colleagues at a conference I went to about 14 years ago. We don't remember what the guy said. We just remember those horrible pale, hairy legs he was parading around on stage. I don't remember a thing about what any of the women speakers wore. Just that one professor and his shorts and pass me the brain bleach, now.

[elengil]

Side note: men were still taking themselves seriously when they wore these as standard, so clearly men are capable of accepting that flaunting your physique in no way diminishes your intellect.

Hidden text.

[Maria]

I grew up where "skinny dipping" was common. I'm completely capable of seeing but not noticing nude men. When we lived in West Germany in the 80's though, I insisted on wearing a swim suit to the local pool which allowed nudity, because some of my soldiers might be there at the same time. Them being standard issue Americans, it would have been detrimental to discipline to see their commanding officer in the nude.

Even the public pool allowed topless sunbathing, and my husband really urged me to try at least that. I had to refuse for the same reason.

When my mother in law visited us, I took her walking in a park in Frankfurt once, with our young daughter in a stroller. It was a beautiful day. As we walked along, a guy stood up from sunbathing, stretched and lay back down on his other side. My MIL went a bit bug-eyed. "DID YOU SEE THAT? That man didn't have any clothes on!!!!" Full on, jaw dropped, staring in shock. I was appalled. You aren't supposed to NOTICE these things! I begged her to turn away and NOT NOTICE. And please stop making a fuss! That was totally legal where we were.

She allowed me to pull her away with the stroller and soon got distracted when my daughter started toddling after a peacock.

My point is, what is acceptable dress is very, VERY dependent on locale- (edit) and who you are with.

[Dave_LF]

I've never really understood the "I don't want attractive women around because they're too distracting" line of argument. I don't know about anyone else, but I've always been perfectly capable of getting my job done with nice-looking women around. I prefer it that way, to be honest.

Now my cubicle neighbor who talks and sings aloud to himself all day while he works? That's distracting.

[elengil]

I've never really understood the "I don't want attractive women around because they're too distracting" line of argument. I don't know about anyone else, but I've always been perfectly capable of getting my job done with nice-looking women around. I prefer it that way, to be honest.

I suppose if you believe that women should only exist to be a distraction, then it would make sense you would not want them where you might be distracted by them when you don't want to be, and would instead relegate them to places you want to be distracted by them.

[RoseMorninStar]

Manet's 'Luncheon on the Grass' (and 'Olympia') is intentionally academically provocative and socially shocking (as artists/musicians tend to do to make a name for themselves). It was intended as a call back to earlier classical paintings, kinda pointing out the absurdity by placing a similar subject matter in a-at that time-modern setting. Those who would have been frequenters of the galleries in Paris in 1863 would most likely have understood the compare/contrast. One of the influences for Manet's painting was Concert champêtre by Titian.

titian.jpg (55.26 KiB) Viewed 4162 times

Some societies and religions dictate extremely modest dress for women, (while men seem to pretty much wear whatever they wish) . Unfortunately I don't think that equates into treating women any less like an object, as if women are interchangeable and for the sole benefit of men. The woman in the job applicant photo in question looks as if she is at a job fair and from what little we can see it appears to be rather informal (they're not applying to work at Goldman-Sachs). In such a situation would we criticize a young man wearing a v-neck sweater? It probably wouldn't be button down.. but women have breasts and it's kinda hard to hide them depending upon how one is built (speaking from experience here ). So then, is it a matter of how she is covered or that she is young, attractive and has breasts? More focus should be placed on respecting the autonomy of another human being and that we all be taught that others are not here to serve our whims, male or female. Taken to the extreme.. some women are literally covered head-to-foot, and they are still raped. Where is the problem in that scenario? The woman for having the audacity to be born with lady-parts or the one who hasn't been taught to respect others? Maria.. I agree with your line of thinking on this matter and I've heard about the nudity in Germany. I'm sure I would be uncomfortable at first, not being used to that.. but it is a matter of respect. It reminds me of the breastfeeding debate and how 'unnatural' we have made the human body and it's normal function. It's not a problem with the body so much as it is a lack of respect.

"If men are so easily distracted, they should stay home. We women will run the country."

...............

On the subject of animals, I mean, in addition to the human one above..
I'm not advocating for any particular viewpoint, I am sharing that the article raised concerns that elicited thoughts & emotions that I found perplexing and certainly challenged my comfort level. I can see valid arguements both sides of the debate, especially when not taken to extremes. I don't have a problem with (most) people keeping pets or raising stock in a humane way. Maria, from what you've shared, your farm practices sound like a proper, responsible, and healthy way to raise livestock. However I shudder when I read about pigs who spend their entire lives in pens so small they cannot turn around or socialize.

In the course of week while mulling over thoughts on this subject, a friend who recently went vegetarian was giving me a hard time. She was discussing how inhumane the raising of meat is and the pain the animals feel and the environmental impact, etc.. etc.. and she couldn't understand why I just don't stop eating meat. Because of the article I had read I couldn't help but think that her 3 cats probably eat more meat than I do. TO BE CLEAR: I am not saying she should not have her kitties. I am not saying we should not have pets. HOWEVER, due to the way we keep these pets, they are not part of the natural eco-system, we feed them meat that has been raised to be slaughtered just as we do for ourselves. That seemed to create a paradox that really has been playing some havoc with my head.

[Alatar]

WRT Pets. I have no problem with keeping animals as companions, or breeding animals to be good at specific duties. I do, however, have a problem with animals (dogs in particular) that are unnaturally bred to have particular looks or features simply because some person has decided that feature is attractive, particularly when that feature is a defect. Pugs, Boxers, Chihuahuas and others are examples of this. I also believe that the breeding of dogs for pets is farcical when pounds are full of unwanted dogs. The proliferation of puppy farms is 100% the fault of these owners of "designer" dogs and I genuinely think the RSPCA should force interbreeding again to bring dogs back to their natural species.

[elengil]

I 100% agree that we've bred some animals to their detriment, I'm not sure if you can reverse the process to any meaningful degree with different breeding programs, though perhaps we can at least stop perpetuating some of the more problematic health problems.

Animal welfare in general is sorely lacking in many industries, most people think farm animals or meat, I immediately think science experiments

[RoseMorninStar]

I don't like the 'defect breeding' of dogs like pugs, etc.., but aren't pure bred dogs more prone to certain diseases and issues like hip dysplasia, cancers...?

[yovargas]

Guy in very office appropriate attire happily showing of exactly as much of his wares as the lady was.



Just sayin'.

[Sunsilver]

WRT Pets. I have no problem with keeping animals as companions, or breeding animals to be good at specific duties. I do, however, have a problem with animals (dogs in particular) that are unnaturally bred to have particular looks or features simply because some person has decided that feature is attractive, particularly when that feature is a defect. Pugs, Boxers, Chihuahuas and others are examples of this. I also believe that the breeding of dogs for pets is farcical when pounds are full of unwanted dogs. The proliferation of puppy farms is 100% the fault of these owners of "designer" dogs and I genuinely think the RSPCA should force interbreeding again to bring dogs back to their natural species.

What concerns me about the 'adopt, don't shop' crowd is they forget you can't pick up a dog at the pound that's able to do this: https://www.facebook.com/SatusStockdogs ... &__xts__[0]

Sorry, it's a FB video, so some of you may not be able to see it. However, it shows border collies herding HUGE bucking bulls into a trailer that's sitting in the middle of a field. Amazing animals, amazing training!

I DO agree that certain breeds (the ones with short faces in particular) are an abomination, and I wish there was something that could be done to stop breeding for some of the extremes you see in the show ring.

In a perfect word, every dog that's shown would have to pass some sort of obedience or temperament test to show that in addition to looking pretty, it would make a good companion. Working or hunting dogs would be required to pass some sort of working test to show they still had some of the abilities their breed was originally bred for.

Some breeds HAVE done outcrosses outside the stud book to combat genetic diseases or bring back traits that have been lost, so it's not unheard of. But the dog genome is so adaptable, getting rid of harmful traits and extremes likely can be done with careful breeding and outcrossing within the breed.

For those of you unfamiliar with the short-nosed dogs breeds, a dog's muzzle contains its cooling system. A dog can't sweat the way we do, so when we breed dogs with almost no muzzle, we put the dog at extreme risk of overheating in hot weather. It also causes the soft palate to extend into the back of the throat and block the airway. Some of these dogs are literally fighting to breathe their entire lives. Some of them need surgery to be able to breathe normally. And then these dogs go on to become grand champions in the show ring...

It's so bad that vets often notice when these dog are intubated for surgery, they often don't try to push the tube out as they are coming around from the anesthetic, as it's the first time in their lives they've been able to breathe normally!!

Edit: can someone clean up that link, please?? I don't have time - have an urgent appointment!

[Sunsilver]

As for 'designer dogs'...don't get me started!! Will give you the full story later when I have time!

[RoseMorninStar]

For those of you unfamiliar with the short-nosed dogs breeds, a dog's muzzle contains its cooling system. A dog can't sweat the way we do, so when we breed dogs with almost no muzzle, we put the dog at extreme risk of overheating in hot weather. It also causes the soft palate to extend into the back of the throat and block the airway. Some of these dogs are literally fighting to breathe their entire lives. Some of them need surgery to be able to breathe normally. And then these dogs go on to become grand champions in the show ring...

It's so bad that vets often notice when these dog are intubated for surgery, they often don't try to push the tube out as they are coming around from the anesthetic, as it's the first time in their lives they've been able to breathe normally!!

Aww. That is just awful.

yov, my head isn't usually turned by looks... but I'm not sure you're making a good case for someone not being distracting with that photo. (for what it's worth, I thought the woman in the job fair photo was less distracting).

[yovargas]

Whether or not his outfit is distracting (and I posted the picture because it's showing almost exactly the same amount of skin and form as the lady in the picture), I am fairly confident that no one would say that "he might just as well be advertising his wares on a street corner" or that he was "dressing like prostitutes".

[elengil]

I am fairly confident that no one would say that "he might just as well be advertising his wares on a street corner" or that he was "dressing like prostitutes".

Maybe he is an exotic dancer, though?

[Maria]

Our first rat terrier exterminated the rats on our farm. Our livestock guardian dog keeps coyotes and stray dogs away. I'm a big fan of animals doing what they are bred to do.

[River]

el, Magic Mike did cross my mind...

It has occurred to me that the angle of that woman's photo may have also enhanced her figure a bit. Her attire certainly wasn't out of line with what is typical for the front office around here. We who work in the lab tend to favor a higher neckline but that's a safety thing. If something should manage to splash within the labcoat opening, it's better if it hits clothing. Better to have stuff splashed on fabric than on flesh. We who work in the lab also wear long pants and closed toe shoes year round. There's nothing quite like trying to balance with one leg up in the lab sink so you can rinse your digits. I don't recommend it.

[yovargas]

Okay, maybe I was wrong then.