Living in Both Worlds

[Primula Baggins]

Me, too . . .

<bookmarks madly>

[MithLuin]

Me three!

I made a modest start at indexing the (gigantic) Frodo's Kitchen thread, but nobody hold their breath waiting for it. ...

[narya]

Many of the threads are archived in TORCtext, available here:
http://neb2.gotdns.com:8080/torc/comple ... /index.php

The extractor isn't working for me right now, but many of the threads were already archived by others, including Frodo's kitchen. It's much easier to search thru a document that is all one page.

Sorry to distract all from the great discussion of the previous page.

I hadn't posted or even looked at the Internet for 2 weeks, and was considering giving MB up altogether, but you brought me back with your profundity. Thanks. I think.

[/osgilliate]

[MithLuin]

I know! Denethor never finished MoME - very disappointing. Though I suppose my sister should thank you .

My intention is to take the discussions of the Frodo's Kitchen thread and create hyperlinks to the first post in each one. And then arrange by topic. So that in the end....you can easily find the conversation of interest.

A neat idea, no? But....don't hold your breath .

Now, back to Impy's brilliance....

[Impenitent]

Checked them out - and yes, it was the last thread you've linked to there "Why exactly is Frodo suffering..." in which I posted those original thoughts. Gee, that was a long time ago! In 2002.

[Inanna]

2002.... I was four years younger, had just become a member of TORC, and was less enlightened!

Imp!

[Impenitent]

Hello Mahima!

Gosh, I missed this whole second page when I posted last above (posted in a dreadful hurry and didn't check my post afterwards, which is unusual for me because I'm so paranoid about typos).

Mith, indexing "Frodo's Kitchen" is an act of great philanthropy! I hope you achieve it. And am embarrassed to have been complimented by you in that way; there's nothing brilliant about my ponderings, especially as compared to TheWagner and Lord_Cie, Magpie, Roaccarson etc, all of whom posted with such scholarly understanding. I don't understand the half of it when they get into literary analysis, having never formally studied literature.

However, I've gone through one of Narya's links and have pulled together some my disparate thoughts on the 'other realm'. Here they be, crudely pasted because I'm short of time for weaving them together into a narrative. But really, having read through The Secret of Frodo's Inner Strength again is very humbling. What a great coming together of interesting minds in that thread! (and in the others!)

...the Ring's primary and cunning device was to 'fade' the wearer inevitably into an alternate plane or reality, an unseen world which is somehow connected (Tolkien never explicitly told us) to timelessness (the wraiths dwell there unliving, without time drawing to its close). This is the realm in which the High Elves eg Glorfindel can coexist, and in which the wraiths ever dwell, and into which Frodo was drawn--by the morghul knife splinter, which was removed in time to prevent his permanent removal to that world, as well as by the Ring's inexorable power. But the wraiths and the High Elves seem to be on the opposite spectrum in that world--the yin and yang one could almost say, the dark and light. And Frodo's nature has more in common with Glorfindel in that world that he does with the wraiths, so I would propose that some of this strength comes from this growth towards light in the timeless plane...

Frodo's innate integrity allowed him to transform the inherently evil processes of the morghul knife and the Ring of drawing him to darkness, into a process of cleansing and growth, so that he grew towards light--and gave him a clarity which allowed him to persevere in his quest.

I speculate also whether the Elvish words (Quenya) which came to him unbidden came from his 'presence' in the timeless plane...

Further idle speculation: Sometimes I see Frodo as becoming Gandalf's apprentice, as it were: guided by Gandalf so clearly at the beginning, and by the end (Scouring of the Shire) representing Gandalf himself.

... Frodo seems to intuit Gandalf the White outside logic--perhaps also from his 'presence' in the timeless plane?

[narya]

I speculate also whether the Elvish words (Quenya) which came to him unbidden came from his 'presence' in the timeless plane...

That wouldn't explain Sam popping off with Elvish when using the Lady's glass. Unless the glass was helping him out, somehow.

[Impenitent]

Speaking of the Lady's glass, I have found it an interesting and symbolic parallel that Galadriel's phial of sacred light was given unto Frodo, who was himself transmuted into something similar - clear glass filled with light.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

all of whom posted with such scholarly understanding. I don't understand the half of it when they get into literary analysis, having never formally studied literature.

Imp, scholarly doesn't always necessarily equate with understanding. You have great insight into Tolkien's work, and I'm always thrilled when you share it.

[MithLuin]

*mutters* More than The Wagner ever showed.

Oops, was that out loud?



Just kidding....but I think love of a book imparts understanding much more surely than scholarship. Though scolarship is more precise, and can clear up misunderstandings, so it has its place.

[Frelga]

this is out of the left field...

When I think about living in both worlds, for some reason the evolution debate comes to mind. To me, this world may be about selection, fossils, primodeal soup... And then there is the other, God speaking the worlds into being, arranging things just so and resting content that it is good. I wouldn't give up either world.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That is out of left field, Frelga!

I'll have to give that some more thought.

[MithLuin]

Frelga, you have nailed a distinction between the physical and the spiritual - neither story is the full truth, alone. A spiritual reality had to happen, somehow - the drama plays out in the physical world. And the physical world obtains its meaning from that drama - on its own, it's just "stuff"

I do not think there is any difference between the "planes" that the Nazgûl and the High Elves exist on. The other world is just that - a world, not worlds. Yet, their manner of existence there is radically different. The Nazgûl are unnaturally stretched and contored, almost "camping out" there, while an elf like Glorfindel or Galadriel belongs there naturally. Incarnation can limit a Maia's ability to pass back and forth between the two.

By putting on the Ring, a hobbit like Frodo is pulling out of this world, and "visiting" the other world. Those who exist in the physical realm cannot see him (men, orcs, other hobbits). But those who exist in the other world as well see him plainly - the Nazgûl, Tom Bombadil, Sauron. As a Ringbearer, he starts to see some of the other world - it is not hidden from him completely. Thus, he sees Galadriel's ring and he feels the presence of the Nazgûl and the attention of the Eye. Sam sees Frodo and Gollum with other vision, suggesting that he is seeing them as they appear in the 'other world' The Black Breath is a disease of the other world, as well.

Both Sam and Frodo 'speak in tongues' while wielding the Phial of Galadriel because of divine inspiration. Sam is happy to credit everything to Galadriel, but I think it is much more clearly Elbereth who is providing them with light and water. He only knows Elbereth as "what the elves say," but she is the Lady looking out for him. By the prayer of Galadriel, perhaps, or Arwen, who do know better. I think this is an example of the other world breaking through into this world.


Of course, in fantasy, that already happens - Wormtail looks evil and twisted, because in reality (=other world) he is. The veil is more transparent than we are used to, I think.