The Heroism of Faramir

[Primula Baggins]

[Note: The first six posts were moved from the "Heros" thread in Bag End - VtF]

Prim, but book-Faramir WAS tempted by the Ring. He just didn't have to take a trip to a rehab in Osgiliath to fight it off.

I don't know, Frelga. I just didn't read any real temptation in him. He just rises above it instantly, the way I rise above temptation by Mounds bars (I happen to hate coconut).

Now this is a much more difficult thing that Faramir does, but how? Why? What makes him able to do that? That's what I want to know about him, and that's what the book doesn't tell me. He is a Good Guy, and therefore he can and does do the Good Thing. <shrug> It looks easy; how admirable is it?

See, I know some very Good Guys, and they actually do have to struggle a bit, even to pass up a Mounds bar.

(I don't think PJ's take is ideal, either, BTW.)

[WampusCat]

* overlooks Prim's unreasonable bias against coconut, since it deserves pity more than scorn

My reading of book-Faramir was that he wasn't tempted because he did not lust for power. Those who most desired power were those most tempted to seize and use the ring. That's why hobbits were ideal ring-bearers. Frodo was able to resist for so long because he only wanted to use it out of fear -- to become invisible -- rather than to control. (At the end, even he couldn't resist, of course.) Those most tempted were the powerful (Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel), the would-be powerful (Boromir) and the greedy (Gollum). Faramir wanted peace and quiet, books and a comely shieldmaiden.

[Primula Baggins]

That's definitely the key, Wampus, but it would have resonated better for me if he did feel something, and overcome it.

I wonder if my whole problem with this is related to my strong liking for Frodo? That I rather resent this Ranger of Ithilien who can flick away a temptation that ultimately breaks Frodo—who is as good as Faramir and as well-intentioned, and in my view a greater hero?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Do I need to move this Faramir discussion to the Shibboleth forum?

[WampusCat]

No, we'll get back to topic. After this...

I feel sure Faramir himself would have fallen to ring-lust if he had carried it all the way to the Cracks of Doom.

[MithLuin]

No, discussion of Faramir's nobility is certainly on topic in a thread on Heroes. Of course, I think discussion of Faramir is appropriate just about everywhere. I haven't really had much of a chance to swoon for him since PJ butchered him, but I can try .

Frodo is my hero in a way that Maedhros is not. I love Maedhros, I think he's a great guy, but in no way do I want to be him. I think he has some fatal flaws. For one thing, he's downright freaky. You wouldn't really want to get into an argument with any of Fëanor's sons....you might lose a limb, or something. They're like Wookies that way, I guess. And despite his diplomatic skills and friendship with Fingon, he's still just about solely responsible for the second two Kinslayings, and a major participant in the first one. So, Maedhros can be many things, but he can't be a hero. Just swoon-worthy

Faramir is more like Frodo and Finrod. He's noble and good, on top of being so delicious. But unlike them, he doesn't die for his conviction. (Well, neither does Frodo, but he thinks he will, so it's almost the same thing.) But like them, he is willing to die over it. He knows that returning to Denethor and reporting what he has done will earn him no brownie points. He knows he's a dead man when he goes out to fight, without his father's blessing...and he almost does die (funeral pyre! funeral pyre!)

Faramir talks himself out of the Ring before he knows clearly what he's talking about. It is no mistake that he is so, ah, long-winded in his conversations with Frodo and Sam. He tells us all about who he is, and who his brother was. Then, Sam lets it slip that "oh, by the way, it's the One Ring that we have here." In that moment, Faramir is more than tempted. "Here I have you...two halflings, and a host of men at my back." He knows he can take it from them if he wants to. I have known people who got angry at Faramir because they thought he was 'teasing' Frodo, joking with him about stealing the Ring. No....it was not a joke, even though he laughed and the Men thought it a jest. It was the moment of Faramir's temptation. He passed the test, yes, but how does that make him any different from Galadriel or Gandalf, both of whom refused the Ring just as abruptly? They refused it even when offered to them. Faramir merely refuses to steal it when it is clearly not his. [Frodo is not so foolish as to offer it to this young captain of Gondor, who seems so good, but looks so much like Boromir...] That was Galadriel's original argument to herself, before Frodo tested her and she went radioactive . Faramir tells them that he is not a liar and a thief. He said he wouldn't take it, and so he won't. His moral victory is thus smaller than either Gandalf or Galadriel's, and his test was simpler than Boromir's (he never saw the Ring, nor did he have weeks to rethink his decision - Boromir lied when he said he was no thief; sound familiar?).

Given those circumstances, he does what any good and noble person would do. It is perfectly reasonable. How do we know he is good and noble? "I do not love the sword for its sharpness nor the arrow for its swiftness...I love only that which they defend." "I would have Minas Tirith be Minas Anor of old, a queen among many queens, not a mistress of slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves." He tells us, that's how. He tells us he does not want a weapon for itself, and he would only use one to defend that which he loves. So, he does not want the Ring as the Ring, and would only be tempted (as his brother was) to take the Ring to save my city. But why does he not fail that test? Because he would not use the arts of the enemy to save that city, he would not make Minas Tirith a new Minas Morgul. It is tempting as an easy solution to his problems, but it isn't what he wants.

So no, he doesn't like coconunt, even if the chocolate coating is so tempting....

If he were given Frodo's role, he wouldn't have lasted. There are weaknesses in his denial, and given time, they would have been eroded away and exploited. As a member of the Fellowship, he would have lasted longer than Boromir, but only because he would have had more respect for the words of Elrond and Gandalf. He would not have lasted to the bitter end, I do not think. He could not have done what Frodo did, and admits as much: "I marvel at you," to have the Ring, and not to use it.... If that's how he feels about it, how long do you honestly think he would have lasted as Ring-bearer?

PJ added Aragorn's complete denial of the Ring at Amon Hen. Why was this acceptable, while Faramir's was not?

[All of Faramir's quotes are from memory, and thus...not quite right.]

[Frelga]

Mith, I'd like to echo every word in your post. Like all who encounter the Ring, Faramir is tempted. Unlike Boromir and Denethor and like Samwise the Brave and Galadriel, Faramir has a clear vision of what it would really be like if he used it. And he doesn't want that. He knows that not only the end does not justify the means, but the end would be very different from what he had intended.

I would note that, unlike in PJ's version, Frodo doesn't seem to suffer so much from Ring addition until he passes into Mordor, IIRC.

So back to heroes - Faramir is one not because he didn't care for the Ring, but because he did, and knew he would pay dearly for not doing what he wanted to do - and doing the right thing anyway.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Now this is a much more difficult thing that Faramir does, but how? Why? What makes him able to do that? That's what I want to know about him, and that's what the book doesn't tell me. He is a Good Guy, and therefore he can and does do the Good Thing. <shrug> It looks easy; how admirable is it?

The beauty of Tolkien's work, at least to me, is that you have dig deep to find these motivations. One has to look at the whole picture (including those blasted Appendices) and think about it, and fill in the blanks yourself, in order to see how Faramir got to the point where he was able to do what he does. I find Faramir to be a more and more fascinating character over the years (and Aragorn too), as I reread and reconsider not only his own story, but that of his family and his antecedents.

And the movie portrayal has added to that richness for me, not taken away from it.

[MithLuin]

The movie portrayal has made me hate the name "Faramir" and I can not even pretend to swoon for him.

These posts being moved here make me want to pull my hair out.


And yet, somehow, life will go on.....


Voronwë, the word you are looking for is "Heroism"

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I know, Mith.


"I would not use the Ring. Not if Minas Tirith were falling in ruin and I alone could save her."

My hero.

[Primula Baggins]

I guess it depends on wwhether one approaches LotR as a collection of historical documents to be pored over and pieced together, or whether one approaches the book itself, at least, as a narrative that ought to be able to stand on its own. I can understand the appeal of the first, but in judging a book as a book or a character as a character, I fall into the second camp: if the reader is expected to know or understand something, it should be right there on the page. Maybe subtly, maybe in the background, maybe from an unreliable source, maybe just a hint—but it should be on the page.

Mith has pointed out some hints that I tend to overlook in my reading of this section of the book. And perhaps I'm generally inattentive just because I never have "gotten" Faramir and so I tend not to read really intently when he's talking. What's on the page is obviously enough for Mith, and a for lot of other people, or Faramir would not be so beloved. The failing, no doubt, is mine.

But I stubbornly say that if something so vital does not come through to a subset of attentive readers, who have read the book many times and love it, then something can be said to be lacking.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I guess it depends on whether one approaches LotR as a collection of historical documents to be pored over and pieced together, or whether one approaches the book itself, at least, as a narrative that ought to be able to stand on its own.

Yes, I agree. I certainly do not mean to imply that the latter is incorrect. I would think that that is how the vast majority of people would (and should) look at it.

But I certainly fall in the first camp.

[MithLuin]

And I view it as a world to be lived in.....


So yes, I am certifiably insane .


No, seriously, I think I fall into both camps, and don't see why it should be either/or. I love the story, and so I study it. I can pour over geneological tables, puzzling out the inheritence of hair or eye color, or I can try to figure out how old people were when things happened. (Faramir is the same age as Sam, if I recall correctly).....and Gimli's request for Galadriel's hair can be put in the context of Fëanor's request, and....

But I read it as a story, too. I fall in love with the characters, get to know them better, think about who they really are, what they really did.

Faramir's parting words to Frodo, about sitting by a stone wall in the sun after the War is over....are the words of a man who thinks he will die, to another man he thinks will not survive....but he will hope nonetheless. That..just speaks volumes about Faramir.

The man isn't perfect. He understands Lothlórien while Boromir did not (Aragorn corrects Boromir before entering, but Faramir does not need that correction - he uses the word "unchanged" unprompted.) But he has no concept of the Balrog, missing the terror of him completely, and suggests that it must have 'irked' Boromir to run from such a foe. Frodo doesn't really know how to correct that misconception! Like Boromir, he is bound to understand everything in terms of "Gondor vs. Mordor," with just more awareness of his neighbors.

Some things are only clear on re-reading. We meet Faramir before we meet Denethor. We hear about the dream, and the decision to send Boromir to Rivendell, from all three of them. Putting all of this together will not be done by a casual reader. But it is there! The fact that not everyone sees it doesn't mean that they are inattentive. It just means that each person will interpret these characters differently. Not everyone will be convinced by Faramir's sincerity or inate goodness just because he waxes poetical about history . You don't need to rely on external sources, but Tolkien's letter that says Fararmir's character is the one who is most like himself....is saying something!

Okay, I just remembered, there is one thing about movie!Faramir that I like - his costume. I will swoooon for Ngila Dickson any day . "I think you have a different kind of courage." Yeah, Pippin, the wimpy kind.... I don't mind David or anything - he does a fine job in Van Helsing. It's just....he's not Faramir, and it's the script's fault.

[Primula Baggins]

See, I love to do that, too, and not just with LotR. Finding out more fascinates me. But I also think that a story should be able to stand on its own. Of course LotR does stand on its own, wonderfully, for my money. But some of the characters suffer if you've never done the further reading or the piecing together, and in my artistic judgment, that's a weakness. A book should work as a book, on its own, even if it's enriched by reading additional material.

Some parts of the Appendices have become so integrated into my thinking that I've almost forgotten what a "Huh?" moment it was for me when Arwen showed up in RotK, the first time I read it. I vaguely remembered her. . . . And I wished, then and many times since, that some hint of the story of Aragorn and Arwen had been woven into the fabric of LotR. It would have made Aragorn more real to me, and made his struggle less abstract.

You have no idea how nervous I feel about criticizing Tolkien's technique when my own far lesser book is going to be published later this year. I'll beg in advance for mercy for a beginner. I know that in my own book, I haven't met all these lofty standards I wave around. And I certainly know that I should expect to be judged by them.

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

Whee! A Faramir thread!

I'll echo Mith in saying that Faramir absolutely was tempted. We don't get inside his head to see it, but it's there. That one line quoted above shows that he knows that he has the power to take it. The fact that he's contemplating that at all seems to me to show that he is tempted.

So how can he resist? He's got Boromir's example to show what might become of that. If you put Boromir and Faramir together, you'd get someone who was very real instead of a hero and anti-hero. He knows the history of the Ring and what it could do. It's been far too long since I read the book, but doesn't he also know of Boromir's fate at this point? Knowing what it did to Boromir may have made it much easier for him in the long run to say "Gosh, that really doesn't sound like fun at all."

Of course, Faramir is also not exposed to it for very long. He doesn't have the Ring preying on his mind. Not only that, but even if the Ring could prey on him, it wouldn't find many holds. Faramir doesn't seem to desire power or glory -- "I do not love the sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." And also, "I would not take this thing if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her thus, by using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such victories, Frodo son of Drogo" (italics mine). My point there is that it's not about him, it's about Minas Tirith. The Ring grabs onto the desire for power, to vainglory, and Faramir hasn't got any of that. He's still tempted, but because he's a decent person he's able to overcome it.

Sam is the same way. Does that lessen Sam's heroism? He's exposed to the Ring more closely and for far, far longer than Faramir and even after bearing it he can give it up. It's a struggle, but he can do it because he is a good hobbit who doesn't want power. He cares for the greater good, as does Faramir. Almost everyone in the other heroism thread seemed to agree that a real hero has to be in it for the tribe, so I would say that Sam and Faramir are both pretty darn heroic. Are they heroic for being able to resist the tempation? Yes, a bit, but that's only part of it. What makes them really heroic is what allows them to overcome that tempation in the first place.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I feel sure Faramir himself would have fallen to ring-lust if he had carried it all the way to the Cracks of Doom.

It is no mistake that he is so, ah, long-winded in his conversations with Frodo and Sam.

Long-winded, eh? Ain't that like that pot callin' the kettle black?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist, Mith. Like Faramir, you have a lot to say that is worth listening to. )

But he has no concept of the Balrog, missing the terror of him completely, and suggests that it must have 'irked' Boromir to run from such a foe.

I'm not so sure, Mith.

Boromir's first response to the Balrog was to blow his horn, which causes the Balrog to pause only briefly. IIRC both Aragorn and Boromir want to stand and fight despite Gandalf saying "this foe is beyond any of you" or something to that effect. Doesn't Gandalf have to exhort the Fellowship, "Fly you fools!"? I believe that Aragorn and Boromir would have stood with Gandalf if they did not have the hobbits to look after.

I think Faramir knew his brother, and I think he was right. I recall, too, that Denethor was a bit puzzled how his son fell to mere Orcs. Pippin tells him, "A man may be slain by a single arrow, and Boromir was pierced by many" (or something like that). Certainly a man of Boromir's prowess and standing might be expected to fight powerful foes. Warriors of that ilk don't run.

Okay, now for the confession...

Believe it or not, I have not always identified with the guy in the yellow boots. When I first read LOTR at the age of 11 years old the first character that I most strongly identified with was Faramir.

I, too, am a second born son, although I didn't feel that I lived in the shadow of my older brother. I did, however, appreciate that Faramir was artistic and scholarly as well as being a very competent warrior. And who would not wish to be admired and loved as Faramir obviously was? Yes, ladies, Faramir was a righteous dude.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I believe that Aragorn and Boromir would have stood with Gandalf if they did not have the hobbits to look after.

Indeed, Frodo tells Faramir exactly that.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I believe that Aragorn and Boromir would have stood with Gandalf if they did not have the hobbits to look after.

Indeed, Frodo tells Faramir exactly that.

Yes, but Frodo could have been telling Faramir a "white lie" to make him feel better. Now that I'm home I can actually look this up...

'He cannot stand alone!' cried Aragorn suddenly and ran along the bridge. 'Elendil!' he shouted. 'I am with you, Gandalf!'

'Gondor!' cried Boromir. and leaped after him.

I guess Frodo wasn't fibbing after all.

[Pearly Di]

I must confess that I am greatly influenced by the BBC LOTR's take on Faramir, and have been so since 1987. I just love Andrew Sears' gorgeous voice. I have no idea what the guy looked like, but his voice ...

Ahem. Anyway.

The BBC radio adaptation very clearly shows Faramir being tempted by the Ring ... just for a brief moment. He recognises exactly what Its power is, and what It can do (a crucial instinct which escaped Boromir's radar) and he very quickly brings himself under control. It's a brilliant scene, beautifully acted, one of my favourites in the entire 13-episode dramatisation. In fact, the whole Frodo-Sam-Faramir interaction in the BBC LOTR is and then Perfect.

I love David Wenham as Faramir. Forget Osgiliath, which we've discussed to death and beyond. Wenham channels the gentleness, courtesy, strength of will and courage of Book Faramir in ROTK.

I'm not really capable of discussing Faramir in a non-swoony manner, sorry.

He's just KEWL.

OK, I'll try to be rational. The blood of Númenor runs high in him. That's why he is spiritually wiser than either his father or his brother.

[JewelSong]

OK, I'll try to be rational. The blood of Númenor runs high in him. That's why he is spiritually wiser than either his father or his brother.

And much, much hotter.