The Book of Job discussion

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SirDennis
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Post by SirDennis »

Ghân wrote:SirD, I believe our judgement is distorted by our being privy to God's thoughts. We have the advantage of the whole picture; the "wager" between God and his servant, Satan. Job's friends don't. All they have is the evidence of their eyes. Would a just God be so (apparently) unjust, to torture a righteous man? Surely not. Therefore the only conclusion left to them is that Job is a self-deluding sinner... yet they still maintain their love for him.

I find them rather noble.
Yes Ghân, we can work within that premise I think ;) (And it does help that we can read ahead to the end when trying to discern what is going on!) Having been in a similar situation (as I know others here have been -- minus the specific details of course) all I'm saying is Elifaz opening with an accusation, as if he knows the mind of God, was not very helpful just then.
Ax wrote:I would say true sympathy can only come from the mind, from a recognition that, there but for the (extremely loaded term in this context) grace of God go I, from recognizing the similarity I have with any other given person, from acknowledging the bond of shared humanity between us.

Think of what sympathy means in music: when you pluck a string, the string tuned to match vibrates as well, though it has not been touched. Well, with people we have to do that tuning ourselves, or rather, be brought up in a way that encourages our natural ability to do it ourselves.
Ax I see what you are saying. I've experienced sympathetic pain before; a football injury in my left knee (yes my life is as cliched as that) produces pain in my right knee at times. Also, for those of us who have been blessed with pregnancy inside a partnership may know, often there is a sympathetic effect experienced in the body of the non-pregnant partner. But I do not see, beyond their willingness to sit in the ashes with him, this kind of [physical] sympathy among Job's friends. As for the other kind of sympathy, well we can assume that they have some for him, but their attempts at reasoning through the dilemma seem an inadequate, if not contrary at times, expression of that sympathy.


NB: When we are ready to move foward, for anyone looking for Job 6 and 7 it is on page 5 of this thread.
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Post by axordil »

As for the other kind of sympathy, well we can assume that they have some for him, but their attempts at reasoning through the dilemma seem an inadequate, if not contrary at times, expression of that sympathy.
They have a frame of reference: if you're good, God rewards you. If you're bad, God punishes you. That limits how they can respond, even when a friend they can't find fault with except through extrapolation is obviously suffering.

What's happening is that what is normally an abstract theological issue is being forced into the very concrete realm of personal, physical experience and the two realms are colliding with some force. They can either assume their friend is in the wrong or that the rules they believed in are wrong.

In this regard, GBG is correct: we should have some sympathy for them. Either way they choose, they're sacrificing something.
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Post by SirDennis »

Ax wrote:In this regard, GBG is correct: we should have some sympathy for them. Either way they choose, they're sacrificing something.
I agree as well. However, and I struggle with this myself, they need to be careful not to quote for truth things they are not absolutely certain about. Even now there are lots of things religious people believe that are not founded on scripture. Yes there is interpretation -- and we are all aware of the problems with interpretation -- but as I have said elsewhere an interpretation of scripture is either correct or it is not; it is not a matter of opinion... admittedly this is a hard concept to grasp in an age where relativism holds as a guiding principle.

If not relativism then what? History has already shown us that trusting the wrong people with the keys to the kingdom (as it were) eventually can lead to dogma stated as truth with the potential for ruin in the offing.

So if not relativism, what? Well I think the best we can hope for -- assuming we are not inclined to ask that grace guide us -- is talk it out among ourselves until we come to a consensus about the meaning of a given passage (and hope we aren't too far from its mark).
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Post by Ghân-buri-Ghân »

SirDennis wrote:
Ax wrote:In this regard, GBG is correct: we should have some sympathy for them. Either way they choose, they're sacrificing something.
I agree as well. However, and I struggle with this myself, they need to be careful not to quote for truth things they are not absolutely certain about. Even now there are lots of things religious people believe that are not founded on scripture. Yes there is interpretation -- and we are all aware of the problems with interpretation -- but as I have said elsewhere an interpretation of scripture is either correct or it is not; it is not a matter of opinion... admittedly this is a hard concept to grasp in an age where relativism holds as a guiding principle.

If not relativism then what? History has already shown us that trusting the wrong people with the keys to the kingdom (as it were) eventually can lead to dogma stated as truth with the potential for ruin in the offing.

So if not relativism, what? Well I think the best we can hope for -- assuming we are not inclined to ask that grace guide us -- is talk it out among ourselves until we come to a consensus about the meaning of a given passage (and hope we aren't too far from its mark).
Horse and cart philosophy, perhaps, SirD. I would propose that scripture was a codifying of beliefs, rather than beliefs being founded on scripture... :)

I'm working at formulating an argument against anachronistic projection for the friends of Job. I hope you find it interesting, if it's worth posting, naturally! :D
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Post by axordil »

It is indeed likely that the oldest part of Job is as old as the oldest part of Torah, older than Proverbs, where (as I noted) many of the conventional sentiments also show up.
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Post by Ghân-buri-Ghân »

axordil wrote:It is indeed likely that the oldest part of Job is as old as the oldest part of Torah, older than Proverbs, where (as I noted) many of the conventional sentiments also show up.
I would tentatively propose that's really hard to ascertain, considering that (Dead Sea scrolls notwithstanding), the oldest extant reference is Maccabean... :)
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Post by SirDennis »

Ghân-buri-Ghân wrote:
SirDennis wrote:
Ax wrote:In this regard, GBG is correct: we should have some sympathy for them. Either way they choose, they're sacrificing something.
I agree as well. However, and I struggle with this myself, they need to be careful not to quote for truth things they are not absolutely certain about. Even now there are lots of things religious people believe that are not founded on scripture. Yes there is interpretation -- and we are all aware of the problems with interpretation -- but as I have said elsewhere an interpretation of scripture is either correct or it is not; it is not a matter of opinion... admittedly this is a hard concept to grasp in an age where relativism holds as a guiding principle.

If not relativism then what? History has already shown us that trusting the wrong people with the keys to the kingdom (as it were) eventually can lead to dogma stated as truth with the potential for ruin in the offing.

So if not relativism, what? Well I think the best we can hope for -- assuming we are not inclined to ask that grace guide us -- is talk it out among ourselves until we come to a consensus about the meaning of a given passage (and hope we aren't too far from its mark).
Horse and cart philosophy, perhaps, SirD. I would propose that scripture was a codifying of beliefs, rather than beliefs being founded on scripture... :)

I'm working at formulating an argument against anachronistic projection for the friends of Job. I hope you find it interesting, if it's worth posting, naturally! :D
A point well taken. As I inferred in one of the observations in which I referred to Genesis 3:17 I do not presuppose Job's friends were working from scripture (as we are). There is the question of where animal sacrifice entered into it; if it follows from Able and Job was thought to exist after Able, then it is likely, especially among the religious, the story of Adam would also be known. The real question about the religions following Abraham then becomes, if not from Adam, where? But this takes us back to arguing about the origins and validity of the Bible over much, and to me is a separate discussion altogether.

I look forward to what is likely to be your very worthwhile post. (I'm glad we have a little joke between us. Even I can't believe the cheek in some of the things I say at times.)

Ax do you think it is possible that, as Ghân suggests, that it may be a matter of certain books being written only when someone got around to doing it rather than in accordance with the development of beliefs and practices?

Edit for xpost with Ghân: well there's a curveball and no mistake :D
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Post by Lalaith »

axordil wrote:
As for the other kind of sympathy, well we can assume that they have some for him, but their attempts at reasoning through the dilemma seem an inadequate, if not contrary at times, expression of that sympathy.
They have a frame of reference: if you're good, God rewards you. If you're bad, God punishes you. That limits how they can respond, even when a friend they can't find fault with except through extrapolation is obviously suffering.

What's happening is that what is normally an abstract theological issue is being forced into the very concrete realm of personal, physical experience and the two realms are colliding with some force. They can either assume their friend is in the wrong or that the rules they believed in are wrong.

In this regard, GBG is correct: we should have some sympathy for them. Either way they choose, they're sacrificing something.
I think that's good to keep in mind, ax and GBG. I've always felt a little sorry for Job's friends. (Well, maybe not all of them...)

Anyway, this reminded me of an Oswald Chambers' quote:

Never make a principle out of your experience; let God be as original with other people as He is with you.


Maybe that's not exactly pertinent here, but it seems like it fits to me.
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Post by SirDennis »

Lalaith wrote: Anyway, this reminded me of an Oswald Chambers' quote:

Never make a principle out of your experience; let God be as original with other people as He is with you.


Maybe that's not exactly pertinent here, but it seems like it fits to me.
It does seem like it fits but you are being far too mysterious about the object of your observation. Hopefully it wasn't anything I've said...

Which reminds me, I'm wondering if I should repost Job 6&7 before I go to bed (which will be soon as I have a long drive home tomorrow)?
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Post by Lalaith »

I'm not trying to be mysterious. :) I just meant that Job's friends judged him based on their own experiences. It's a good thing to keep in mind that God works differently with different people.
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Post by axordil »

Ghân-buri-Ghân wrote:
axordil wrote:It is indeed likely that the oldest part of Job is as old as the oldest part of Torah, older than Proverbs, where (as I noted) many of the conventional sentiments also show up.
I would tentatively propose that's really hard to ascertain, considering that (Dead Sea scrolls notwithstanding), the oldest extant reference is Maccabean... :)
It's the style of the poetry that's the clue...that and the fact that the poem is found in those selfsame DS scrolls with a different prose framing story.

Can't say for sure of course, and this is going back to my graduate school days in the early 90s.
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Post by SirDennis »

Well hopefully anyone interested has had a chance to peruse Job 6 & 7 (which I quite liked) on page 5.

In the interests of moving things along we will now look at Bildad's, the second of Job's councillors, opening argument as it appears in the somewhat challenging (to me) King James Version. It is fascinating that in a way the 4 (or 5) friends are modelling an approach to theological questions for us. It may be that in the end, that theology -- even when well argued by the noble and wise -- cannot provide solace in and of itself in the face of inexplicable suffering... unless perhaps, as I read in an outline of Job, one is willing to accept that "... some suffering is the result of unseen, spiritual conflicts between the kindgom of God and the kingdom of Satan -- between the kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness..."

Job 8 KJV or HEB

Bildad's First Speech


1 Then answered Bildad the Shuhite, and said ,
2 How long wilt thou speak these things? and how long shall the words of thy mouth be like a strong wind?
3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?
4 If thy children have sinned against him, and he have cast them away for their transgression;
5 If thou wouldest seek unto God betimes , and make thy supplication to the Almighty;
6 If thou wert pure and upright; surely now he would awake for thee, and make the habitation of thy righteousness prosperous .
7 Though thy beginning was small, yet thy latter end should greatly increase .

"Job, you're wasting your breath complaining. If you were righteous not only would God hear you if you turned to him, but he would also prosper you again."

8 For enquire , I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers:
9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow:)
10 Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee, and utter words out of their heart?
11 Can the rush grow up without mire? can the flag grow without water?
12 Whilst it is yet in his greenness, and not cut down , it withereth before any other herb.

This description of life on Earth is echoed (though varied) throughout the scriptures, even in Job. It makes me wonder where the idea came from that some people cling to religion because they cannot bear the idea that life is meaningless or that humankind are insignificant in the grand march of time.

True story: someone just emailed me today saying (among other things): "I'd rather believe in a universe full of mystery and wonder rather than we're somehow the most significant thing in it - seems like an awful waste of space." Again I ask, where does the idea come from that believers think humans are the most significant thing in the universe, or that religion is somehow not about mystery and wonder? The entire book of Job wrestles with the mystery of why bad things happen to good people.

Anyway, the imagery of a reed growing out of the mire, and of the shortlived flag, a beautiful flower that blooms only for a day or two a season (even in the abundance of water) is poignant.

Mire and water, the good and the bad, life endures whether fed by grace or lack of grace, however marsh plants like all living creatures wither and die all too soon... "our days on earth are [but] a shadow." Wait, or does this phrase mean life on earth is merely a shadow of life outside of time?


13 So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish :
14 Whose hope shall be cut off , and whose trust shall be a spider's web.
15 He shall lean upon his house, but it shall not stand : he shall hold it fast, but it shall not endure .
16 He is green before the sun, and his branch shooteth forth in his garden.
17 His roots are wrapped about the heap, and seeth the place of stones.
18 If he destroy him from his place, then it shall deny him, saying, I have not seen thee.
19 Behold, this is the joy of his way, and out of the earth shall others grow .

As is pruning, winnowing, and brush clearing imagery repeated throughout the scriptures (ie grass cut, collected and burned). Which by the way (as far as I'm concerned, though milage may vary) is not a metaphor for hell, just a comment on the usefulness or lack of value of weeds and suckers except maybe for fuel. If it does refer to hell, as those who have brush clearing experience know, the imagery suggests it (the burning) will be over quickly.

What Bildad says above is true inside the context of his religion, but it seems also an accusation of sorts given what we know about Job so far. Whether it is intended to be an accusation or if Bildad is merely stating a principle, it seems it is not applicable to Job, if Job was blameless as God said he was in Chpts 1 & 2.

Note though that it was God who said it, and not Job... though Job continues to struggle with awareness of where he went wrong if that is in fact what lead to his affliction. It may be true though that the moment we start thinking of ourselves as righteous, we cease to be righteous. ;)


20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers :
21 Till he fill thy mouth with laughing, and thy lips with rejoicing.
22 They that hate thee shall be clothed with shame; and the dwelling place of the wicked shall come to nought.

Again I wonder if Bildad is suggesting that Job is guilty of something, for instance, of turning his back on God, or of hypocrisy? The evidence suggests otherwise.

Perhaps again he is stating a principle which in the balance seems positive: Do wrong and suffer, do right and experience joy. But again the question remains, what happens when it is the blameless who suffer? If the answer truly is "well, because..." Job's inclusion in scripture is all the more significant.


ps sorry if there are typos but I can't figure out the spell checker at this terminal.

Edit: expanded comment following v12 and corrected a few typos (including "typo's" from the line above.
Last edited by SirDennis on Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by axordil »

There is a plaintive, almost childlike desire to believe in divine justice that comes at me in this section in particular, that the triumph of the strong and evil will be short lived, that the trod upon little guy who's virtuous will come out right in the end.

It's arguably the central psychological theme of the OT, which when you consider the position of Israel and Judea, makes a lot of sense. Wedged between the big players of ancient civilization--the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Persians, the Greeks and eventually the Romans--who took turns either dominating or conquering them, the Israelites had to look at things that way to maintain any cohesiveness as a people.

It's the reason Jacob and not Esau inherited. It's the reason Joseph (and Daniel for that matter) went from slave to royal adviser. It's the reason David beat Goliath--and took the kingdom from Saul. Israel is the plucky, spunky little kid on the block who fights all the bullies in turn.

Annnnd then the Babylonians crush them, and the character of the holy writings changes.
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Post by SirDennis »

comes at you? Do you mean comes over you? Or do you mean is palpable in Bildad's beliefs as stated?
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In Bildad's beliefs, not mine. ;) Otherwise the rest of my post makes far less sense. :D
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Post by SirDennis »

Oh... well, forget it then :D

Actually I was going to bring in the quote "unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven" but now it seems superfluous. However it is staggering how often God's people are referred to as [his] children in the scriptures.


So I watched the Immortals (2011) last night (not bad, Luke Evans the guy who will play Bard was Zeus -- very encouraging). When recounting the tale near the end I heard this:
Old Man: [voice over] All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine. Once a faithless man, Theseus gave his life to save mankind and earned a placed amongst the Gods.
It made me feel a little sad and disillusioned. Anyone want to play psychiatrist?
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Post by SirDennis »

No takers then? huh. It was a friendly, if not a touch needy, request...

Okay, before ploughing ahead, would anyone like to take over for a few chapters? You can follow the model I've established or adopt a different form; my only request is that we continue looking at the text (as it appears in various English translations) as we would in any other book study.
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Post by SirDennis »

...Tough crowd :P Moving right along (sorry about the pause -- a lot of driving and seeing my kids and wife and such -- oddly I didn't make it to church this past weekend :help:).

In Job 9 Job speaks again. Perhaps it is just me but he doesn't seem as perplexed with Bildad as he did Elifaz. Is he playing a game of divide and conquer? Probably not... there was definitely something different about Bildad's approach, compared to Elifaz's I mean. Perhaps they were playing Good Cop Bad Cop with Job? Probably not...

Switching back to the NLT which is so straightforward (but not lacking in charm entirely) that there is almost no need for commentary.

Job 9 NLT or HEB

Iyov (Job) answers Bildad


Then Job spoke again:

“Yes, I know all this is true in principle.
But how can a person be declared innocent in God’s sight?
If someone wanted to take God to court,
would it be possible to answer him even once in a thousand times?
For God is so wise and so mighty.
Who has ever challenged him successfully?

An encouraging opening in that Job agrees with Bildad. But he despairs that it is not possible to contend with God. Job believes he is innocent but there is the nagging detail of his affliction. What does it mean?

Unless he is being rhetorical here, he might also be complaining slightly about the obvious imbalance of power between people and God. In his state, could we blame him?


“Without warning, he moves the mountains,
overturning them in his anger.
He shakes the earth from its place,
and its foundations tremble.
If he commands it, the sun won’t rise
and the stars won’t shine.
He alone has spread out the heavens
and marches on the waves of the sea.
He made all the stars—the Bear and Orion,
the Pleiades and the constellations of the southern sky.
He does great things too marvelous to understand.
He performs countless miracles.

"God is the mightiest force in existence and master of all creation."

“Yet when he comes near, I cannot see him.
When he moves by, I do not see him go.

Have you ever noticed how difficult it is to see colossal things when you are right up close to them? Or is Job referring to some other aspect of God?

If he snatches someone in death, who can stop him?
Who dares to ask, ‘What are you doing?’
And God does not restrain his anger.
Even the monsters of the sea [or "the helpers of Rahab"] are crushed beneath his feet.

I added the bit about Rahab back in as it appears in several translations. Apparently Rahab was some kind of mythical monster of antiquity.

“So who am I, that I should try to answer God
or even reason with him?
Even if I were right, I would have no defense.
I could only plead for mercy.
And even if I summoned him and he responded,
I’m not sure he would listen to me.
For he attacks me with a storm
and repeatedly wounds me without cause.
He will not let me catch my breath,
but fills me instead with bitter sorrows.
If it’s a question of strength, he’s the strong one.
If it’s a matter of justice, who dares to summon him to court?
Though I am innocent, my own mouth would pronounce me guilty.
Though I am blameless, it would prove me wicked.

This part touches me somewhat. For one thing that feeling of helplessness is very uncomfortable. Sure Job probably knew in principle that he owed everything to God and was happy to return love and obedience in recognition of this. But the day you realize that you are completely powerless before God, completely dependant on his provision, his judgement, and his will -- that without him you are as nothing -- that can be terrifying, especially for people who are used to believing they are the ones in control of their own destiny.

For another it appears Job has decided that it is God who is afflicting him. This must have felt like that separation we talked about a little in the resurrection thread. As someone pointed out in this thread, if God is omniscient, allowing suffering can be interpreted as him doing it himself. I think there is a difference between allowing someone to be tested and torturing them yourself. Regardless, from the point of view of the afflicted and those who love them, the effect is the same. It's not as if knowing you are being tested makes it any less painful... the main difference that I can see is when the faithful are tested, there remains the hope that things will improve or that it is not without reason (or even benefit). It's sort of like trusting that the pain a surgeon causes will lead to improved health in the long run. Doesn't make it easier, but hope goes a long way. Sadly Job is on the edge of despair as the next few verses reveal.

“I am innocent,
but it makes no difference to me—
I despise my life.
Innocent or wicked, it is all the same to God.
That’s why I say, ‘He destroys both the blameless and the wicked.’
When a plague sweeps through,
he laughs at the death of the innocent.
The whole earth is in the hands of the wicked,
and God blinds the eyes of the judges.
If he’s not the one who does it, who is?

Tagging on that bit at the end was probably Job playing it safe. Pretty harsh to say "God laughs at the death of the innocent" but this is what despair looks like. It must have been doubly painful feeling abandoned to the whims of a wicked world... separated from God.

“My life passes more swiftly than a runner.
It flees away without a glimpse of happiness.
It disappears like a swift papyrus boat,
like an eagle swooping down on its prey.
If I decided to forget my complaints,
to put away my sad face and be cheerful,
I would still dread all the pain,
for I know you will not find me innocent, O God.
Whatever happens, I will be found guilty.

Interesting that all of his former blessings count for nothing... suffering keeps you in the now, perspective is not particularly useful. I think it's supposed to work both ways but often happiness seems the more sweet after a period of mourning.

He says: "I am afflicted, therefore God must not believe me to be innocent."


So what’s the use of trying?
Even if I were to wash myself with soap
and clean my hands with lye,
you would plunge me into a muddy ditch,
and my own filthy clothing would hate me.

"There is no escaping God's judgement."

“God is not a mortal like me,
so I cannot argue with him or take him to trial.
If only there were a mediator between us,
someone who could bring us together.
The mediator could make God stop beating me,
and I would no longer live in terror of his punishment.
Then I could speak to him without fear,
but I cannot do that in my own strength.

"Clearly this is not a meeting of equals: God is sovereign and I am beholden to him. I wish there was a mediator that could reconcile me to him because as a human I am powerless to do so myself [by any means]."
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Post by axordil »

A powerful passage, and I will comment tomorrow. My internet has been dodgy all day and is still not right, but I can post at least.
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Post by SirDennis »

As Kermit and Fozzie say...

For this, the continuation of Job's third speech, I've basically paraphrased his words. Let me know if I am wide of the mark.

Job 10 KJV or HEB

Out of his affliction Job speaks directly to God:



My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.

"I can't take it anymore... I can't even pretend to be hopeful right now."

I will say unto God, Do not condemn me; shew me wherefore thou contendest with me.

"Why is this happening to me?"

Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?

"Are you enjoying this? Why is life so unfair?"

Hast thou eyes of flesh? or seest thou as man seeth?

Are thy days as the days of man? are thy years as man's days,

That thou enquirest after mine iniquity, and searchest after my sin?

"Do you have any idea what it is like on earth, that you should judge me?"

Thou knowest that I am not wicked; and there is none that can deliver out of thine hand.

"You must know I am innocent, but I cannot escape your judgement should you believe otherwise."

Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.

"Why would you treat me like this?"

Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese?

"Did you make me only to perish?"

Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.

Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.

Shifting gears briefly: "Yes, you made me to live. You have been good to me...

And these things hast thou hid in thine heart: I know that this is with thee.

and when you made me it was not without also giving me awareness of you and your ways."

If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.

If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction;

"Regardless, I do not understand why this is happening to me; don't you care about me?"

For it increaseth. Thou huntest me as a fierce lion: and again thou shewest thyself marvellous upon me.

Thou renewest thy witnesses against me, and increasest thine indignation upon me; changes and war are against me.

"Things are supposed to get better, not worse. My suffering continues, why aren't you helping me [as you did in the past]?"

Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!

I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.

"Did you give me life only that I should suffer? If so I wish I had never been born."

Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,

Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;

A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

"Why don't you just kill me already? I would prefer the abyss to life such as this."

For something written so very long ago, there is a sophistication here that is undeniable. More importantly, there is relevance here to readers -- especially those who are suffering -- today. I can't remember saying anything substantively different when I turned to God in the throes of my own great affliction... :cry:
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