The 2008 Presidential Campaign: Part Three

[sauronsfinger]

Hal are you trying to infer that Obama was an affirmative action admission? Please just come out and say it.

Friends of Obama have said they recalled him saying that he did not list his race on his Harvard Law School application.

"I have no way of knowing whether I was a beneficiary of affirmative action either in my admission to Harvard or my initial election (as president of the Harvard Law ) Review. If I was, then I certainly am not ashamed of the fact, for I would argue that affirmative action is important precisely because those who benefit typically rise to the challenge when given an opportunity."

that is from UPI.com 8/10/08

[nerdanel]

I imagine he mailed in an application that included his transcripts, his test scores, and his letters of rec. And then he showed he deserved his offer of admission by graduating on time with high honors.

Did he? How do you know that? If it's true, why would he hide his grades? Given he's hiding his grades, isn't it more likely that he got into Harvard by knowing the right people? Oh, and lets not forget he's black, which gives him a leg up on white people. But I'm sure it was just the hard work... of which we have no evidence...

...except his, you know, managing to graduate at the top of his class WHILE being President of the Harvard Law Review (which I heard described during my time at HLS as a full time job on top of coursework.) By the way, exams at HLS are blind-graded, so his professors wouldn't have been able to give him a "leg up on white people" - he actually would have needed to earn his grades.

And - as a cum laude graduate of HLS, who knows how many thousands of hours of blood, sweet and tears were required to earn that lesser designation - I'd stipulate that ANY magna cum laude grad of HLS (whether Republican or Democrat, black or white or Asian or Hispanic, male or female) "deserved" to be at HLS. You, my friend (tm, McCain), have no idea what it takes to get through that school at all - let alone in the fashion that Obama did.

That said, V - one quick clarification - the magna/top 10 percent is a recent innovation at HLS, and I think it post-dated Obama, but would need to check the back of my transcript to be sure. Before, there used to be a minimum GPA cutoff for magna and the designation was usually awarded to a greater percentage of the class (IIRC, 15-25 percent - a sore spot b/c I'd have graduated magna under that standard - gah!)

[Inanna]

And Obama's grades are not important, the fact he won't release them is... particularly as he has said so emphatically that he worked hard for everything he got... when if his grades were low, it would be obvious that he was helped along at several points. So once again, did he lie, and hide the evidence? Or... um... well, no, I'm pretty sure that's what he did, as there's not really any other reason for hiding your grades. Me, I was pretty proud of mine.

Obama graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law School, meaning he was in the top ten percent of arguably the hardest, most competitive school of any kind in the country (please don't tell nel I said that ).

Sure, but how did he get in?

As far as I know, Harvard, and almost all schools do NOT look at only grades when admitting. They look at the whole "package", blah-blah.... so yes, maybe his cgpa was not 4.0, that would indicate to you that he was helped? Or that it was only affirmative action?

Does it matter? If his grades do show that he was B- in, I don't know, mathematics - that is going to change what the voters think about him as a candidate?

[sauronsfinger]

latest poll numbers from WashingtonPost.com show no change from last week:

The new survey shows Obama leading McCain by 53 percent to 44 percent among likely voters, little changed from a separate Post-ABC News poll released last Monday. Among all registered voters, Obama's lead is 10 percentage points, 52 percent to 42 percent.

[halplm]

no, how did he get IN, Nel.

And, of course, he had to work to graduate from Harvard.

And SF, I'm sure "friends of Obama" would never lie. And did he get in with the help of Affirmative action? Not my point. He probably knew the right people, who knew the right people, who wanted to get his political career off to a great start.

Again, if he got in on merit, why would he hide his grades?

[River]

What do his undergrad grades matter when he graduated in the top 10% of his law school class? Are your really saying a man who graduated Magna cum Laude didn't deserve to be there? Because people who don't belong in a university program of any kind don't graduate with honors. They get the boot long before that, or crawl over the finish line carrying their limbs. I've seen it happen.

As for the affirmative action bs...I'm not going to start. You're sounding like a bitter white man.

ETA: Why do Obama's grades matter? Or anyone's for that matter?

[Erunáme]

hal, when you go to Obama's website to donate you have to check a box testifying all of this:

1. I am a United States citizen or a lawfully-admitted permanent resident.
2. I am at least 16 years old.
3. This contribution is not made from the general treasury funds of a corporation, labor organization or national bank.
4. This contribution is not made from the funds of a political action committee.
5. This contribution is not made from the treasury of an entity or person who is a federal contractor.
6. This contribution is not made from the funds of an individual registered as a federal lobbyist or a foreign agent, or an entity that is a federally registered lobbying firm or foreign agent.
7. The funds I am donating are not being provided to me by another person or entity for the purpose of making this contribution.

I would assume the same things are verified by phone. Could people lie? Yes, but how is Obama's campaign supposed to stop them from doing that?

Hal, when you post without using words like Lie and Hate, I enjoy having you here.

Add phrases like "You are so blinded", "you don't care about...", "you want to see him win at all costs", "you can't accept" and "it sickens me to see him able to trick smart people into buying his rhetoric".

Hal, when will you learn that people not agreeing with you does not mean that your opinion is unwanted? How many people have to say this to you?

[Primula Baggins]

Do you know of any evidence that he didn't deserve his admission to Harvard Law?

Do you know of any evidence that 1% of his donations are illegal ones from overseas?

Do you know of any evidence that any of the things you hint at and insinuate are true?

In the absence of any evidence of wrongdoing, no American has to prove his innocence to anyone, including you, Hal. (In fact, even if there were evidence, it would still be up to the state to prove guilt.) There is effectively a higher standard for presidential candidates in that they get scrutinized from all angles by whole teams of experts, some of whom are extremely eager to find anything disqualifying. You hint that no one has looked hard enough at Obama; I counter that mobs of really skilled and suspicious people have done just that, for two years now, and anything they found that was headline-worthy would already be headlines.

[halplm]

Obama graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law School, meaning he was in the top ten percent of arguably the hardest, most competitive school of any kind in the country (please don't tell nel I said that ).

Sure, but how did he get in?

As far as I know, Harvard, and almost all schools do NOT look at only grades when admitting. They look at the whole "package", blah-blah.... so yes, maybe his cgpa was not 4.0, that would indicate to you that he was helped? Or that it was only affirmative action?

Does it matter? If his grades do show that he was B- in, I don't know, mathematics - that is going to change what the voters think about him as a candidate?

Again, not my point. He has stated repeatedly that he "worked hard" and got where he was without any help... but if it then comes out that someone greased the wheels for him to even get into Harvard. If his political career was starting there, it's yet another peice of mystery about how he got to where he is so quickly.

Again, he could settle everything by talking about it and releasing his grades... but he doesn't, and wont. Why?

[River]

nel, this is just a point of curiousity. At my undergrad institution, the latin honors cut-offs were set by GPA. One deviation above the mean was cum laude, two out magna, three out summa. Harvard was more generous?

[halplm]

Do you know of any evidence that he didn't deserve his admission to Harvard Law?

Do you know of any evidence that 1% of his donations are illegal ones from overseas?

Do you know of any evidence that any of the things you hint at and insinuate are true?

In the absence of any evidence of wrongdoing, no American has to prove his innocence to anyone, including you, Hal. (In fact, even if there were evidence, it would still be up to the state to prove guilt.) There is effectively a higher standard for presidential candidates in that they get scrutinized from all angles by whole teams of experts, some of whom are extremely eager to find anything disqualifying. You hint that no one has looked hard enough at Obama; I counter that mobs of really skilled and suspicious people have done just that, for two years now, and anything they found that was headline-worthy would already be headlines.

No, but I see a whole lot of stuff he doesn't want to talk about... and he's written two books about himself.

He talks about stuff that people used to hide, drugs and such, but those are safe things to talk about for politicians these days.

He hides things. He's afraid of people digging into his past, which he has very very carefully hidden (or as you say, people would find it).

Do I think this is because he's an evil man? No.

I think it is because he has been runnign for president for 20 years, and he has had people helping him that I do think are evil men, and he has been able to get where he is too quickly with not enough scrutiny, and it baffles me.

And this has nothing to do with evidence such as the law requires to prove guilt or innocence. The fact you guys keep bringing that up is just deflecting from the issue.

This has to do with people's VOTES. It has to do with people's PERCEPTIONS based upon which they choose to VOTE. Someone can completely lie about everything, and if they are convincing enough, get everyone to vote for them. It has nothing to do with truth. It has to do with acting and salesmanship.


Why on earth is it wrong for me to want to know how he got into Harvard? I know damn well personally how hard it is to get into Harvard, and I worked my guts out with nothing to show for it. He better darn well have had a 4.0 with a million other extra reasons to get in, or he damn well didn't work hard enough to get in.

Why is it wrong for me to want to know how he could sit in a church with a sick man like Rev. Wright for 20 years?

Why is it wrong for me to want to know why he can even go to a terrorist's house, much less spend 50 million dollars with him and accomplish nothing?

This guy could be president of the United states. Every business deal he's ever done should be public. Every financial deal. Every grade he ever got. Every paper he ever wrote and everything he couldn't get published should be available to me so that I can decide how to cast my vote.

The fact that he would hide ANY of it scares me to death. And the fact that people could so blindly follow him scares me even more.

[TheEllipticalDisillusion]

Again, not my point. He has stated repeatedly that he "worked hard" and got where he was without any help... but if it then comes out that someone greased the wheels for him to even get into Harvard. If his political career was starting there, it's yet another peice of mystery about how he got to where he is so quickly

But do you have evidenced that the wheels were greased?

How do you know McCain spent all that time in the POW camp? What if someone lied? This is just a counter-example.

Again, he could settle everything by talking about it and releasing his grades... but he doesn't, and wont. Why?

Because the accusation isn't valid. Obama doesn't have to prove that your baseless accusation is a lie, you have to prove that your accusation is truth. You is generic. It is the same thing with Obama's citizenship.

Question: why is Wright sick?

[halplm]

Question: why is Wright sick?

Well, for starters, he's a racist.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

Ah, I think I get it now. A black man couldn't have the talent to achieve entrance and success at Harvard. There must have been evil men secretly in the background giving him a leg up.
Right.

[halplm]

Ooh, It only took the next post to call ME a racist. I didn't even think it would be that fast.

[Erunáme]

He hides things. He's afraid of people digging into his past, which he has very very carefully hidden (or as you say, people would find it).

<snip>

This has to do with people's VOTES. It has to do with people's PERCEPTIONS based upon which they choose to VOTE. Someone can completely lie about everything, and if they are convincing enough, get everyone to vote for them. It has nothing to do with truth. It has to do with acting and salesmanship.


Why on earth is it wrong for me to want to know how he got into Harvard? I know damn well personally how hard it is to get into Harvard, and I worked my guts out with nothing to show for it. He better darn well have had a 4.0 with a million other extra reasons to get in, or he damn well didn't work hard enough to get in.

Why is it wrong for me to want to know how he could sit in a church with a sick man like Rev. Wright for 20 years?

Why is it wrong for me to want to know why he can even go to a terrorist's house, much less spend 50 million dollars with him and accomplish nothing?

This guy could be president of the United states. Every business deal he's ever done should be public. Every financial deal. Every grade he ever got. Every paper he ever wrote and everything he couldn't get published should be available to me so that I can decide how to cast my vote.

The fact that he would hide ANY of it scares me to death. And the fact that people could so blindly follow him scares me even more.

All this from someone who supports Palin? I'm sorry but it strikes me as ironic.

[halplm]

HA, as if Palin could hide anythign, with the scrutiny she's had.

I guess you have specifics that make me seem hypocritical, but you'll have to point them.

[Erunáme]

Ooh, It only took the next post to call ME a racist. I didn't even think it would be that fast.

*tries to find where anyone called hal a racist. Can only find hal calling calling someone else a racist. Is perplexed*

[halplm]

Ah, I think I get it now. A black man couldn't have the talent to achieve entrance and success at Harvard. There must have been evil men secretly in the background giving him a leg up.
Right.

[Erunáme]

HA, as if Palin could hide anythign, with the scrutiny she's had.

And Obama didn't have the same scrutiny? I mean, come on, he ran against Hillary!

I guess you have specifics that make me seem hypocritical, but you'll have to point them.

I've already made comments in the past about how to go to lengths to explain away unsavoury issues regarding Palin. You seem to brush off things like Troopergate or the Bridge to Nowhere, but you make a HUGE deal out of the smallest issues in regards to Obama.

edit: I'm still failing to see where anyone called you a racist. Seems you're reading into things that aren't there.