The Two Towers re-redux
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The Two Towers re-redux
Disclaimer/
I'm writing this strictly for my own amusement. Given that the films no longer seem to hold any interest for anyone anymore, I fully expect this to remain a one post thread and sink rapidly to the bottom of the page before disappearing into the aether.
I watched the film a few months ago fully intending to post my thoughts on b77, but since that didn't happen I've decided to resurrect it for HoF.
Before I dazzle you all with my conclusions, I'll just get a couple of nitpicks out of the way, shall I?
What they got wrong:
Théoden's exorcism:
Much like the wizard duel, it cheapened the film with a typical hollywood depiction of possession. I think Saruman's hold over Théoden could have been depicted without resorting the obvious. And even though I thought Brad Dourif played an interesting Grima, I still thought it was less Machiavellian and more simplified evil henchman.
Faramir:
In the director's commentary it was said that bookFaramir was so uncomplicated that he was boring; and that the audience would find his lack of temptation for the Ring baffling .... and so, the rationale went, it was necessary for the film to portray him as conflicted and susceptible. The problem with this theory is .... manifold. Faramir does not need a character arc. Faramir is not Boromir, although the film blurs the distinction between the brothers. By softening Boromir and hardening Faramit the moral difference between them becomes moot so that they are almost interchangeable.
<I freely admit to being swept up in the heart-wrenching drama of Boromir's death .... but all the more reason to distinguish between the two.>
There is further discrepancy with PJ's theory of the seductive power of the Ring and why Faramir could not be seen to be oblivious to it .... Merry, Pippen, Sam, Aragorn (all of human stock) are in closer proximity, and for far longer, than Faramir .... and yet they are magically not tempted to seize the Ring?
Helm's Deep:
The battle is too long. About 10 minutes too long. The action is so frenetic I feel bashed over the head with one frantic scenerio after another until they all blur, merging into one huge, whirling, twirling orc-annihilating orgy....... and then I take umbrage at the obligatory gratuitous shots of the women and children cowering in the caverns. That was supposed to tug at the old heart-strings and make me empathise with them. Well, it didn't. It annoyed me. Where are the bold, brave Rhorric women ready to fight? This is no ordinary war! This is a battle that will decide the fate of an entire culture. They face obliteration ... and the weaker sex (bleh!) huddle under blankets and whimper.
Costumes:
Here's my nitpick. It isn't the actual costumes themselves. I have nothing but praise for the wonderful Ngila Dickson .... it is at whomever decided to dress the rank and file Rohirrim in 'generic' peasant' clothing. Is it a Rohan law that only aristocrats are allowed to wear colours? Why oh why must all the Rohan citizenry wear dull, drab shades of brown, black and grey? It's so .... third-rate and so .... typical.
The Voice of Saruman:
It wasn't included. It should have been. In the TE. The ending of the film is very weak. Instead of the resolution to Saruman's story, the film kinda creeps feebly along and splutters out. How anti-climactic following the glorious victory of the Ents over Isengard. What did Robert Frost say? Not with a bang but with a whimper.
What they got right.
The Foundations of Stone:
Visually breathtaking and a perfect way to connect TTT with FotR. Having Frodo dream (hindsight) of the epic battle between two maia enhanced the Silmarillion feel, I think. This is one of, if not the, most stunning opening sequences I have ever seen. Unfortunately it lead me to into impossibly high expectations for the remainder of the film .... which, sadly, were not met.
Elves at Helm's Deep:
Not canon, I know; but nevertheless the concept works within the film's own internal logic. The emotional impact is successful and their sudden, unexpected, arrival is believable and raised an inner cheer from me.
The Nazgûl rising over Osgiliath:
Such an evocative image! So immensely powerful. So iconic that once again I can forgive PJ's silly reasons for the Osgiliath detour.
<IMO, PJ's deviations, inventions, don't work when they conflict with the basic integrity of the story HE is telling. Ie: Arwen dying makes no sense anyway you slice the pie. (sorry V. and Ath ) and the same goes for the diminishment of Gandalf in ROTK.>
Éowyn:
The gentling of the frigid ice maiden does work. But I have always identified with Éowyn and recognized my own truths within her emotional predicament .... that of being bound by duty and denied the opportunity to prove her worth in a male world. The one small quibble I have with Tolkien is the haste with which Éowyn embraces domesticity once she falls in love with Faramir. PJ only hints at such a change of heart, of course, but in TTT, I suspect even Tolkien might approve of Éowyn.
Arwen's Fate:
If PJ had filmed nothing else of consequence I would love him for these most sublime images. All of the Long Defeat, the overarching theme of Death and Deathlessness is, for me, contained within these scenes of Arwen mourning.Even although Semprini disagrees.
But you, my daughter, you will linger on in darkness and in doubt. As nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Here you will dwell, bound to your grief, under the fading trees, until all the world is changed and the long years of your life are utterly spent.
<That said, I don't really approve of the way in which Arwen was used to make the film(s) Aragorn-centric. The incessant close-up of Liv's face with silent tears loses its appeal after multiple viewings ... and I wonder if PJ understood that Arwen is not a woman with human frailties, but a 2000 year old elf whose forebears have faced, and come to terms with, their fading and the loss of Middle-earth as their home. Frankly, I would expect an elf to do more than sit prettily, wringing her hands, (metaphorically speaking ) whispering every so often of an elusive hope which she does not appear to find compelling, while the obligatory single tear trickles fetchingly down one pale cheek.>
It is difficult (for me) to reconcile the two cinematic styles intertwined here. Often jarringly so. How is it possible .... that the team could conceive of, and execute, a scene as profound as Arwen's Fate ... and also be responsible for dross like. Because he's got my axe embedded in his nervous system?
It boggles my mind!
I frequently feel as though I am watching a film within a film. Directed by two different people of very unequal talent.
Ahem.
Yes. Since I orginally came to praise Ceasar, not to bury him ....... TTT is quite often overlooked in any discusion of the films. Even on TORC, both Fellowship and Return generated more reviews than TTT. But no matter.
On my last viewing, after doggedly refusing to skip over the usual offending scenes, I've arrived at the conclusion that TTT is structurally the best of the three. It deviates the most from the book, and it is certainly not the most lyrical; but I do now consider it the most consistent in that the script holds truest to its own internal logic. And so, I also find it a better crafted film with the least amount of discord. The interweaving of story lines actually work quite well, changing between them is smoother and less abrupt than ROTK where I felt like I could never find solid ground for the first hour or so.
The Two Towers will never replace Fellowship as the most loved. But it does deserve a second look.
I'm writing this strictly for my own amusement. Given that the films no longer seem to hold any interest for anyone anymore, I fully expect this to remain a one post thread and sink rapidly to the bottom of the page before disappearing into the aether.
I watched the film a few months ago fully intending to post my thoughts on b77, but since that didn't happen I've decided to resurrect it for HoF.
Before I dazzle you all with my conclusions, I'll just get a couple of nitpicks out of the way, shall I?
What they got wrong:
Théoden's exorcism:
Much like the wizard duel, it cheapened the film with a typical hollywood depiction of possession. I think Saruman's hold over Théoden could have been depicted without resorting the obvious. And even though I thought Brad Dourif played an interesting Grima, I still thought it was less Machiavellian and more simplified evil henchman.
Faramir:
In the director's commentary it was said that bookFaramir was so uncomplicated that he was boring; and that the audience would find his lack of temptation for the Ring baffling .... and so, the rationale went, it was necessary for the film to portray him as conflicted and susceptible. The problem with this theory is .... manifold. Faramir does not need a character arc. Faramir is not Boromir, although the film blurs the distinction between the brothers. By softening Boromir and hardening Faramit the moral difference between them becomes moot so that they are almost interchangeable.
<I freely admit to being swept up in the heart-wrenching drama of Boromir's death .... but all the more reason to distinguish between the two.>
There is further discrepancy with PJ's theory of the seductive power of the Ring and why Faramir could not be seen to be oblivious to it .... Merry, Pippen, Sam, Aragorn (all of human stock) are in closer proximity, and for far longer, than Faramir .... and yet they are magically not tempted to seize the Ring?
Helm's Deep:
The battle is too long. About 10 minutes too long. The action is so frenetic I feel bashed over the head with one frantic scenerio after another until they all blur, merging into one huge, whirling, twirling orc-annihilating orgy....... and then I take umbrage at the obligatory gratuitous shots of the women and children cowering in the caverns. That was supposed to tug at the old heart-strings and make me empathise with them. Well, it didn't. It annoyed me. Where are the bold, brave Rhorric women ready to fight? This is no ordinary war! This is a battle that will decide the fate of an entire culture. They face obliteration ... and the weaker sex (bleh!) huddle under blankets and whimper.
Costumes:
Here's my nitpick. It isn't the actual costumes themselves. I have nothing but praise for the wonderful Ngila Dickson .... it is at whomever decided to dress the rank and file Rohirrim in 'generic' peasant' clothing. Is it a Rohan law that only aristocrats are allowed to wear colours? Why oh why must all the Rohan citizenry wear dull, drab shades of brown, black and grey? It's so .... third-rate and so .... typical.
The Voice of Saruman:
It wasn't included. It should have been. In the TE. The ending of the film is very weak. Instead of the resolution to Saruman's story, the film kinda creeps feebly along and splutters out. How anti-climactic following the glorious victory of the Ents over Isengard. What did Robert Frost say? Not with a bang but with a whimper.
What they got right.
The Foundations of Stone:
Visually breathtaking and a perfect way to connect TTT with FotR. Having Frodo dream (hindsight) of the epic battle between two maia enhanced the Silmarillion feel, I think. This is one of, if not the, most stunning opening sequences I have ever seen. Unfortunately it lead me to into impossibly high expectations for the remainder of the film .... which, sadly, were not met.
Elves at Helm's Deep:
Not canon, I know; but nevertheless the concept works within the film's own internal logic. The emotional impact is successful and their sudden, unexpected, arrival is believable and raised an inner cheer from me.
The Nazgûl rising over Osgiliath:
Such an evocative image! So immensely powerful. So iconic that once again I can forgive PJ's silly reasons for the Osgiliath detour.
<IMO, PJ's deviations, inventions, don't work when they conflict with the basic integrity of the story HE is telling. Ie: Arwen dying makes no sense anyway you slice the pie. (sorry V. and Ath ) and the same goes for the diminishment of Gandalf in ROTK.>
Éowyn:
The gentling of the frigid ice maiden does work. But I have always identified with Éowyn and recognized my own truths within her emotional predicament .... that of being bound by duty and denied the opportunity to prove her worth in a male world. The one small quibble I have with Tolkien is the haste with which Éowyn embraces domesticity once she falls in love with Faramir. PJ only hints at such a change of heart, of course, but in TTT, I suspect even Tolkien might approve of Éowyn.
Arwen's Fate:
If PJ had filmed nothing else of consequence I would love him for these most sublime images. All of the Long Defeat, the overarching theme of Death and Deathlessness is, for me, contained within these scenes of Arwen mourning.Even although Semprini disagrees.
But you, my daughter, you will linger on in darkness and in doubt. As nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Here you will dwell, bound to your grief, under the fading trees, until all the world is changed and the long years of your life are utterly spent.
<That said, I don't really approve of the way in which Arwen was used to make the film(s) Aragorn-centric. The incessant close-up of Liv's face with silent tears loses its appeal after multiple viewings ... and I wonder if PJ understood that Arwen is not a woman with human frailties, but a 2000 year old elf whose forebears have faced, and come to terms with, their fading and the loss of Middle-earth as their home. Frankly, I would expect an elf to do more than sit prettily, wringing her hands, (metaphorically speaking ) whispering every so often of an elusive hope which she does not appear to find compelling, while the obligatory single tear trickles fetchingly down one pale cheek.>
It is difficult (for me) to reconcile the two cinematic styles intertwined here. Often jarringly so. How is it possible .... that the team could conceive of, and execute, a scene as profound as Arwen's Fate ... and also be responsible for dross like. Because he's got my axe embedded in his nervous system?
It boggles my mind!
I frequently feel as though I am watching a film within a film. Directed by two different people of very unequal talent.
Ahem.
Yes. Since I orginally came to praise Ceasar, not to bury him ....... TTT is quite often overlooked in any discusion of the films. Even on TORC, both Fellowship and Return generated more reviews than TTT. But no matter.
On my last viewing, after doggedly refusing to skip over the usual offending scenes, I've arrived at the conclusion that TTT is structurally the best of the three. It deviates the most from the book, and it is certainly not the most lyrical; but I do now consider it the most consistent in that the script holds truest to its own internal logic. And so, I also find it a better crafted film with the least amount of discord. The interweaving of story lines actually work quite well, changing between them is smoother and less abrupt than ROTK where I felt like I could never find solid ground for the first hour or so.
The Two Towers will never replace Fellowship as the most loved. But it does deserve a second look.
Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:
"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."
Yes.
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Re: The Two Towers re-redux
Au contraire! I missed most, if not all, of the m00bies discussions and am always happy to discuss. (Besides, this is a level of discussion I generally feel I can handle.)Sassafras wrote:Given that the films no longer seem to hold any interest for anyone anymore.
I haven't seen the film in ages, so none of this response is new impressions.
I couldn't agree more. That's exactly the problem!By softening Boromir and hardening Faramit the moral difference between them becomes moot so that they are almost interchangeable.
I agree that it was way too long. I also didn't care for the obligatory women-huddling-fear shots. However, in PJ's defense, the women of Rohan didn't fight in the books either. They were bundled off to Dunharrow, and everyone was shocked when Éowyn showed up on the battlefield at the battle of Pelennor Fields. That doesn't mean that they weren't willing to fight, but Tolkien doesn't say, so it's open to interpretation. Although . . . considering the miniscule force that Rohan ended up with, it does seem like some of them would have stepped up to the battlements.Helm's Deep:
The battle is too long. About 10 minutes too long. The action is so frenetic I feel bashed over the head with one frantic scenerio after another until they all blur, merging into one huge, whirling, twirling orc-annihilating orgy....... and then I take umbrage at the obligatory gratuitous shots of the women and children cowering in the caverns. That was supposed to tug at the old heart-strings and make me empathise with them. Well, it didn't. It annoyed me. Where are the bold, brave Rhorric women ready to fight? This is no ordinary war! This is a battle that will decide the fate of an entire culture. They face obliteration ... and the weaker sex (bleh!) huddle under blankets and whimper.
Too true. Such a great opening, such a mediocre film.Visually breathtaking and a perfect way to connect TTT with FotR. Having Frodo dream (hindsight) of the epic battle between two maia enhanced the Silmarillion feel, I think. This is one of, if not the, most stunning opening sequences I have ever seen. Unfortunately it lead me to into impossibly high expectations for the remainder of the film .... which, sadly, were not met.
I'm still arguing with myself over this one, but I think the side in favour is winning right now. It's nice to see that the Elves still care about Middle Earth, especially with Elrond's many anti-Men tirades.Elves at Helm's Deep:
Not canon, I know; but nevertheless the concept works within the film's own internal logic. The emotional impact is successful and their sudden, unexpected, arrival is believable and raised an inner cheer from me.
The way you put it, it does sound fine, but I really didn't care for Movie!Éowyn (and I'm not biased here at all, of course). She's too gentle. She doesn't seem in any way tempered with steel except in that one scene with Aragorn. Instead, she was made into a lovelorn and somewhat petulant noblewoman. The whole Dernhelm thing seems out of the blue and more a response to unrequited love than anything else.Éowyn:
The gentling of the frigid ice maiden does work. But I have always identified with Éowyn and recognized my own truths within her emotional predicament .... that of being bound by duty and denied the opportunity to prove her worth in a male world. The one small quibble I have with Tolkien is the haste with which Éowyn embraces domesticity once she falls in love with Faramir. PJ only hints at such a change of heart, of course, but in TTT, I suspect even Tolkien might approve of Éowyn.
One of the best additions that PJ made. Like the Appendix come to life. I think you know my feelings on some of the other Arwen material put in.Arwen's Fate:
If PJ had filmed nothing else of consequence I would love him for these most sublime images. All of the Long Defeat, the overarching theme of Death and Deathlessness is, for me, contained within these scenes of Arwen mourning.Even although Semprini disagrees.
It's too bad the rest of the movie isn't as sound as it's structure. Helm's Deep doesn't have the best pacing, but technically it's still a well put together film. Saruman is, I believe, the only subplot with a real loose end within the movie. It's so ironic how this all worked out. Best made film is the least loved and discussed.On my last viewing, after doggedly refusing to skip over the usual offending scenes, I've arrived at the conclusion that TTT is structurally the best of the three. It deviates the most from the book, and it is certainly not the most lyrical; but I do now consider it the most consistent in that the script holds truest to its own internal logic. And so, I also find it a better crafted film with the least amount of discord. The interweaving of story lines actually work quite well, changing between them is smoother and less abrupt than ROTK where I felt like I could never find solid ground for the first hour or so.
I shall try to watch the film again soon and give you a better response.
And it is said by the Eldar that in the water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the sea, and yet know not what for what they listen.
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I actually don't find much to disagree with, although I am able to appreciate Film Faramir more than Sass can (sw00n), and although I believe that the lower classes couldn't afford cloth that had been dyed with bright dyes, that in fact they wove it themselves and dyed it with locally available vegetable dyes, which are often dull. At least judging from the shirt I tie-dyed with beet juice once, bleh.
I actually don't find much to disagree with, although I am able to appreciate Film Faramir more than Sass can (sw00n), and although I believe that the lower classes couldn't afford cloth that had been dyed with bright dyes, that in fact they wove it themselves and dyed it with locally available vegetable dyes, which are often dull. At least judging from the shirt I tie-dyed with beet juice once, bleh.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Re: The Two Towers re-redux
I don't think so. They certainly hold my interest and I didn't participate in m00bies out of fear. It was too scary....and too deep quite frequently.Sassafras wrote: Given that the films no longer seem to hold any interest for anyone anymore, I fully expect this to remain a one post thread and sink rapidly to the bottom of the page before disappearing into the aether.
I didn't have any problems with Faramir until I read some of the stuff in the movies forum and I've come to share your view. There wasn't any need to have Faramir be tempted, no need for him to be violent with Gollum, and no need for him to drag Frodo to Osgiliath. I like the noble, book Faramir better and think he would have worked and not been boring at all. Perhaps a little boring in TTT, but that was fully reconcilled in RotK.Faramir:
In the director's commentary it was said that bookFaramir was so uncomplicated that he was boring; and that the audience would find his lack of temptation for the Ring baffling .... and so, the rationale went, it was necessary for the film to portray him as conflicted and susceptible. The problem with this theory is .... manifold. Faramir does not need a character arc. Faramir is not Boromir, although the film blurs the distinction between the brothers. By softening Boromir and hardening Faramit the moral difference between them becomes moot so that they are almost interchangeable.
I'm not sure what you mean by the softening of Boromir though. Can you explain?
I don't think there is a discrepancy. Hobbits are supposed to be more resillient and less affected by the Ring, hence Bilbo not being completely corrupted by it for many years unlike Isildur. Hobbits are entirely too good natured to be swayed by it quickly and I think that was pretty understandable. We kind of saw Aragorn being tempted whenever Sauron called him (was it on Amon Hen? The part when he let's Frodo go). PJ's Aragorn was supposed to be very noble and maybe a bit too perfect...too modern maybe. But yes, there is a little discrepancy there with Aragorn. All the more reason why Faramir shouldn't have been hardened.There is further discrepancy with PJ's theory of the seductive power of the Ring and why Faramir could not be seen to be oblivious to it .... Merry, Pippen, Sam, Aragorn (all of human stock) are in closer proximity, and for far longer, than Faramir .... and yet they are magically not tempted to seize the Ring?
Yes. It's made up as this huge climax when it shouldn't be. Then in the EE PJ puts in more battle scenes. Like we need to see more heads being cut off and more gore. It upset me when in TTT and RotK he chose to add more battle scenes in instead of really focusing on the important things such as character development.Helm's Deep:
The battle is too long. About 10 minutes too long.
Didn't bother me really. I just assume your random peasant isn't going to have the money to splurge on nice clothes. Aside from special functions, why bother? You don't want to wear nice clothes when mucking out the stables. Brown conceals stains.Is it a Rohan law that only aristocrats are allowed to wear colours? Why oh why must all the Rohan citizenry wear dull, drab shades of brown, black and grey? It's so .... third-rate and so .... typical.
I agree. The shot of the firey balrog falling to the water was amazing!The Foundations of Stone:
Visually breathtaking and a perfect way to connect TTT with FotR.
Btw, I just noticed your Photobucket username: viggovixen! LOL!
I'm pretty easy to please so I liked most of the film after I first saw it. But then I read threads on TORC and my opinions changed.Unfortunately it lead me to into impossibly high expectations for the remainder of the film .... which, sadly, were not met.
I agree again. The Elves were fighting elsewhere and this was a great way to show the two forces working together.Elves at Helm's Deep
While the image is powerful it bothers me nonetheless. I thought it was silly how Frodo saunters up to the Nazgûl and then has this almost orgasmic look on his face as he tried to hand over the Ring. Ugh. Just don't like it.The Nazgûl rising over Osgiliath:
Such an evocative image! So immensely powerful.
Yup! Very dumb no matter how much Iavas tries to convince meArwen dying makes no sense anyway you slice the pie.
Can you explain this as well?the same goes for the diminishment of Gandalf in ROTK.
Me too. But generally when reading mythology of that sort of time period women are like that.The one small quibble I have with Tolkien is the haste with which Éowyn embraces domesticity once she falls in love with Faramir.
I agree with everything you said about Arwen's Fate. That's my absolute favorite part of the movie. It's just so darned moving. It makes my heart soar.
Good point. Never thought of it that way. I've always liked the beauty and the melancholy. It suits me.I wonder if PJ understood that Arwen is not a woman with human frailties, but a 2000 year old elf whose forebears have faced, and come to terms with, their fading and the loss of Middle-earth as their home. Frankly, I would expect an elf to do more than sit prettily, wringing her hands, (metaphorically speaking ) whispering every so often of an elusive hope which she does not appear to find compelling, while the obligatory single tear trickles fetchingly down one pale cheek.
Yes! I've thought this many times! It's truly a wonder how someone can get something so right and then add in something as bad as the skull avalanche or himself as a corsair being shot by an arrow. Why indulge yourself some silly moments and ruin a mood? Why indulge in these cringe-worthy moments? I know he was just having fun, but he should have saved it for himself or done some deleted scenes extras if he wanted to share them. Don't inject such crap and force everyone else to watch it in context!How is it possible .... that the team could conceive of, and execute, a scene as profound as Arwen's Fate ... and also be responsible for dross like.
I don't really get the whole movie structure thing. It's just something I've not learned about I guess. *shrug*I've arrived at the conclusion that TTT is structurally the best of the three.
This was interesting Sass. You know, it's a shame that thread fisssh was doing died out.
Prim wrote:At least judging from the shirt I tie-dyed with beet juice once, bleh.
Yay! Movie discussion!!
Can I start by saying that I was really underwhelmed by the Balrog. Both in Fellowship and Towers. I can't explain why. I just felt "oh... that's not what I was hoping for". I can't tell you what I was expecting just that it wasn't that! As such, the scene was one of the few let-downs for me in Fellowship, so when I saw it reprised in TTT it wasn't a highlight. Then the fall bugged me. Gandalf dropped his sword about 2 minutes earlier, but he catches up with it as he's falling? And then he proceeds to hack chunks out of the Balrog who just lies back and takes it? I love the visual of the "falling star" but I really wish we could have seen the Slime Balrog and the battle up the endless stair followed by the Balrogs re-ignition. Who knows, maybe in the Super-Extended Edition
I never had a problem with Faramir, on the other hand. I thought he was great and very believable. What I didn't like was the Elven Teleconference. That really bugged me. It was like "Here's the story so far in case you're too thick to follow it, oh and by the way Elves can magically know who the ringbearer ran into hundreds of miles away". Lazy. Very lazy. If you need a recap halfway through the film you've screwed something up. If they wanted to remind us of Elrond and Galadriel, there were better ways of doing it, particularly with the Elves at Helms Deep (which I loved by the way).
Arwens Fate was sublime. Nuff said.
Rohan was perfect. Éowyn, Éomer, Théoden and Wormtongue all were excellent. I particularly loved bringing Theodred more into the narrative. "Where are the Horse and the Rider" was fantastic.
I could have done with less fighting at Helm's Deep, but I'll give them credit for this. Prior to the movies I could never get my head round the Hornburg. I was always wondering "So where did they fall back to now?".
Unlike most people, I didn't "believe" in Gollum at first. I found myself watching the effect, not the character. It took a while for me to get past that, but when I did it was great.
Nazgûl over Osgiliath was fabulous.
Sams speech about "the things that matter" really bugged me. It felt like a tacked on message intended to resonate in a post 9/11 America and I felt manipulated.
It's easily my least favourite of the three movies, but it's still worth 10 average movies.
Can I start by saying that I was really underwhelmed by the Balrog. Both in Fellowship and Towers. I can't explain why. I just felt "oh... that's not what I was hoping for". I can't tell you what I was expecting just that it wasn't that! As such, the scene was one of the few let-downs for me in Fellowship, so when I saw it reprised in TTT it wasn't a highlight. Then the fall bugged me. Gandalf dropped his sword about 2 minutes earlier, but he catches up with it as he's falling? And then he proceeds to hack chunks out of the Balrog who just lies back and takes it? I love the visual of the "falling star" but I really wish we could have seen the Slime Balrog and the battle up the endless stair followed by the Balrogs re-ignition. Who knows, maybe in the Super-Extended Edition
I never had a problem with Faramir, on the other hand. I thought he was great and very believable. What I didn't like was the Elven Teleconference. That really bugged me. It was like "Here's the story so far in case you're too thick to follow it, oh and by the way Elves can magically know who the ringbearer ran into hundreds of miles away". Lazy. Very lazy. If you need a recap halfway through the film you've screwed something up. If they wanted to remind us of Elrond and Galadriel, there were better ways of doing it, particularly with the Elves at Helms Deep (which I loved by the way).
Arwens Fate was sublime. Nuff said.
Rohan was perfect. Éowyn, Éomer, Théoden and Wormtongue all were excellent. I particularly loved bringing Theodred more into the narrative. "Where are the Horse and the Rider" was fantastic.
I could have done with less fighting at Helm's Deep, but I'll give them credit for this. Prior to the movies I could never get my head round the Hornburg. I was always wondering "So where did they fall back to now?".
Unlike most people, I didn't "believe" in Gollum at first. I found myself watching the effect, not the character. It took a while for me to get past that, but when I did it was great.
Nazgûl over Osgiliath was fabulous.
Sams speech about "the things that matter" really bugged me. It felt like a tacked on message intended to resonate in a post 9/11 America and I felt manipulated.
It's easily my least favourite of the three movies, but it's still worth 10 average movies.
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End
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Sam's speech! Bleh. I know it really moved many people, but I agree with you, Alatar—to me it felt pasted in and artificial. Which it actually was, I believe—pasted in, to glue together the montage of where everyone was at the end of the film.
And I have trouble with Sean Astin's acting when he's going over the top like that; he gets too blustery.
And I have trouble with Sean Astin's acting when he's going over the top like that; he gets too blustery.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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[quote="Eru-the-wisehearted""]I'm not sure what you mean by the softening of Boromir though. Can you explain? [/quote]
I think the best example of this is the scene in fellowship where he is teaching Merry and Pippin how to swordfight. He is humanized in a way that does not (in my opinion) come through as well in the book.
There are a number of places in ROTK where Gandalf is shown to be full of doubt in a way that he would never have shown in the book. Inevitably it was done to raise up Aragorn. For instance the "what does your heart tell you" scene. And then the horrible version of the Last Debate - what a debacle!
Of course, there is also his "defeat" by the Witchking, but that would require its own thread to discuss.
I think the best example of this is the scene in fellowship where he is teaching Merry and Pippin how to swordfight. He is humanized in a way that does not (in my opinion) come through as well in the book.
the same goes for the diminishment of Gandalf in ROTK.
Can you explain this as well?
There are a number of places in ROTK where Gandalf is shown to be full of doubt in a way that he would never have shown in the book. Inevitably it was done to raise up Aragorn. For instance the "what does your heart tell you" scene. And then the horrible version of the Last Debate - what a debacle!
Of course, there is also his "defeat" by the Witchking, but that would require its own thread to discuss.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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I mentioned the same thing in a discussion at the moot this weekend, but nobody agreed with me and people just kept swooning for the oh-so-lovable-film-Boromir!I think the best example of this is the scene in fellowship where he is teaching Merry and Pippin how to swordfight. He is humanized in a way that does not (in my opinion) come through as well in the book.
That came up at the moot, too. Wildwood was speechless to hear that he got hit on the head by Gandalf!Théoden's exorcism
Well said - thanks!By softening Boromir and hardening Faramir the moral difference between them becomes moot so that they are almost interchangeable.
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
It's a new dawn, it's a new day, it's a new life, and I'm feelin' good ...
Which means that I may just try to engage in a movie discussion without getting all mean and nasty.
As many of you know, I watched TTT at home on video when it came out with complete enjoyment, in spite of all the objectionable stuff. It's one of the blessed mysteries of life for me.
I thought the exorcism was a good and effective way of handling what would otherwise have been impossible. I think the text describing Théoden's transformation is so subtle and complex -- I don't know how it could have been conveyed without taking oodles of time.
Another reason I don't mind it is because it contains the most thrilling line in the movie for me (in terms of acting), when McKellan says:
hearken to me!
He also gave the most thrilling moment for me in FoTR, with:
You ... shall not ... pass!
Honors go to Bernard Hill for the third film.
Which means that I may just try to engage in a movie discussion without getting all mean and nasty.
As many of you know, I watched TTT at home on video when it came out with complete enjoyment, in spite of all the objectionable stuff. It's one of the blessed mysteries of life for me.
I thought the exorcism was a good and effective way of handling what would otherwise have been impossible. I think the text describing Théoden's transformation is so subtle and complex -- I don't know how it could have been conveyed without taking oodles of time.
Another reason I don't mind it is because it contains the most thrilling line in the movie for me (in terms of acting), when McKellan says:
hearken to me!
He also gave the most thrilling moment for me in FoTR, with:
You ... shall not ... pass!
Honors go to Bernard Hill for the third film.
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I for one liked the "softer" Boromir. To me his character has never been much more than a sketch in the book, which means that his actions never seemed strongly motivated to me. I could see, intellectually, why he went after the Ring, but the film made me feel it as well. And it made me care that he died.
But I suppose as we're really discussing TTT, I should be posting some infuriating views on Faramir. Maybe after Fed Ex this afternoon.
But I suppose as we're really discussing TTT, I should be posting some infuriating views on Faramir. Maybe after Fed Ex this afternoon.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Was he actually hit on the head? I thought it was more of a forceful thrust of the staff toward his head.truehobbit wrote:That came up at the moot, too. Wildwood was speechless to hear that he got hit on the head by Gandalf!
eta
But Arwen doesn't linger on in darkness and doubt until all the world is changed and the long years of her life are utterly spent, does she? Doesn't she lie down and give up life a year after Aragorn dies?But you, my daughter, you will linger on in darkness and in doubt. As nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Here you will dwell, bound to your grief, under the fading trees, until all the world is changed and the long years of your life are utterly spent.
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At first he just points the staff threateningly, but it's no use - teh eval guy is too strong.Was he actually hit on the head? I thought it was more of a forceful thrust of the staff toward his head.
It's pretty quick, but I think the staff hits the forehead and out pops Saruman (with a little bruise on the forehead, too, if I've seen it right).
And of course the Kung-fu stunts as they enter the hall are pretty bad to begin with.
Yes, the reason I couldn't find that bit moving was because I just went: huh? I thought she chose mortality?But Arwen doesn't linger on in darkness and doubt until all the world is changed and the long years of her life are utterly spent, does she? Doesn't she lie down and give up life a year after Aragorn dies?But you, my daughter, you will linger on in darkness and in doubt. As nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Here you will dwell, bound to your grief, under the fading trees, until all the world is changed and the long years of your life are utterly spent.
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
Squeeee. I have to admit I love the way the other Fellowshippers take care of the Rohan ruffians while Gandalf strides unconcernedly forward.truehobbit wrote:And of course the Kung-fu stunts as they enter the hall are pretty bad to begin with.
As you can see, I clearly had a different mentality for this movie.
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She chose it, but that doesn't mean it's nice or pleasant. She was created to be an eternal being, and now that's going to be cut off suddenly. Most people fear death, and we expect it and are created to die. I hesitate to say that she's not supposed to die, but that wasn't part of her life plan. She ends up alone in the dead woods of Lothlórien. Choosing it doesn't make it any nicer or less tragic.truehobbit wrote:Yes, the reason I couldn't find that bit moving was because I just went: huh? I thought she chose mortality?But Arwen doesn't linger on in darkness and doubt until all the world is changed and the long years of her life are utterly spent, does she? Doesn't she lie down and give up life a year after Aragorn dies?But you, my daughter, you will linger on in darkness and in doubt. As nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Here you will dwell, bound to your grief, under the fading trees, until all the world is changed and the long years of your life are utterly spent.
I always liked 'softer' Boromir, too. It's not so much that he's 'softer', for the most part, as it is that he's more understandable. He still acts and thinks (for the most part) the same way. In the books, he isn't given real motivation until Frodo and Sam meet Faramir. You're right . . . He's a character sketch. He's all lines and no shading, a script with no stage directions.Prim wrote:I for one liked the "softer" Boromir. To me his character has never been much more than a sketch in the book, which means that his actions never seemed strongly motivated to me. I could see, intellectually, why he went after the Ring, but the film made me feel it as well. And it made me care that he died.
So true! I have no idea how many times I reread the description of the Hornburg, just trying to figure out the geography. Much easier to picture now!Alatar wrote:I could have done with less fighting at Helm's Deep, but I'll give them credit for this. Prior to the movies I could never get my head round the Hornburg. I was always wondering "So where did they fall back to now?".
I was just reading Eru's comment about how her opinion of Filmamir changed, and it occurred to me that PJ doesn't have one single entirely good character. Every character has shades of grey that Tolkien didn't write in, except the Orcs. They all have this hint, or more than a hint, of something not so nice. This is most evident with Théoden and Faramir, I think, but all of the characters have that tint of dark.
And it is said by the Eldar that in the water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the sea, and yet know not what for what they listen.
Me too. I didn't get the battle at Helm's Deep when I first read it. I couldn't visualize is at all so seeing it on film helped make sense to me.Alatar wrote:I could have done with less fighting at Helm's Deep, but I'll give them credit for this. Prior to the movies I could never get my head round the Hornburg. I was always wondering "So where did they fall back to now?".
I have to say I was watching the special effects too at first because such a big deal was made out of it.Unlike most people, I didn't "believe" in Gollum at first. I found myself watching the effect, not the character. It took a while for me to get past that, but when I did it was great.
Thank you for explaining. Personally I think I like movie Boromir more. I guess I like the softening of him. Like Prim, it really made me care and made his death scene so much more poignant.Voronwë wrote:I think the best example of this is the scene in fellowship where he is teaching Merry and Pippin how to swordfight. He is humanized in a way that does not (in my opinion) come through as well in the book.
Ah yes. I remember this discussion now. Yes, the doubting Gandalf in Rohan needing Aragorn to prop him up doesn't make sense.There are a number of places in ROTK where Gandalf is shown to be full of doubt in a way that he would never have shown in the book. Inevitably it was done to raise up Aragorn. For instance the "what does your heart tell you" scene. And then the horrible version of the Last Debate - what a debacle!
Of course, there is also his "defeat" by the Witchking, but that would require its own thread to discuss. [/quote]
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Yes, Mossy! Which bothers people who really enjoy Tolkien's pure-white characters, and bothers other people because some who've never read the books admire the "ambiguity" in the characters, etc., meaning that people are liking the films and thinking what they like is Tolkien when it isn't.MaidenOfTheShieldarm wrote:I was just reading Eru's comment about how her opinion of Filmamir changed, and it occurred to me that PJ doesn't have one single entirely good character. Every character has shades of grey that Tolkien didn't write in, except the Orcs. They all have this hint, or more than a hint, of something not so nice. This is most evident with Théoden and Faramir, I think, but all of the characters have that tint of dark.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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ARGH! *runs away screaming*Cerin wrote:Squeeee. I have to admit I love the way the other Fellowshippers take care of the Rohan ruffians while Gandalf strides unconcernedly forward.truehobbit wrote:And of course the Kung-fu stunts as they enter the hall are pretty bad to begin with.
As you can see, I clearly had a different mentality for this movie.
Mossy, my stress was not on "chose" but on "mortality"!Mossy wrote:She chose it, but that doesn't mean it's nice or pleasant. She was created to be an eternal being, and now that's going to be cut off suddenly. Most people fear death, and we expect it and are created to die. I hesitate to say that she's not supposed to die, but that wasn't part of her life plan. She ends up alone in the dead woods of Lothlórien. Choosing it doesn't make it any nicer or less tragic.Yes, the reason I couldn't find that bit moving was because I just went: huh? I thought she chose mortality?
Because she chose mortality she is not going to dwell here, "bound to your grief, under the fading trees, until all the world is changed" .
I think what was said was that she was going to live on to the end of the world after Aragorn's death, and that's just not the case (if I understand it correctly).
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
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I should have been more clear that I too like movie Boromir more (one of the few places that I would be able to make such a categorical statement.)Eru wrote:Thank you for explaining. Personally I think I like movie Boromir more. I guess I like the softening of him. Like Prim, it really made me care and made his death scene so much more poignant.
Hobby, I see your point, and technically I agree with you. But I don't think it is really meant to be taken that literally. Or at least I don't take it that way. It certainly doesn't detract from the power of the scene for me. But that is the advantage of being a trancendentalist. Things don't necessarily have to make sense for them to work for me. Or at least sense is what you make of it.truehobbit wrote:Mossy, my stress was not on "chose" but on "mortality"!
Because she chose mortality she is not going to dwell here, "bound to your grief, under the fading trees, until all the world is changed" .
I think what was said was that she was going to live on to the end of the world after Aragorn's death, and that's just not the case (if I understand it correctly).
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."