I don't understand it :(

[Pearly Di]

This is a dreadful story. Not sure if I should post it on Lasto Beth but it's not particularly political.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090129/ap_ ... dge_plunge

I heard about it on Radio 4 this morning. Poor little mite.

Adults harming children sicken me to my soul. Cruelty against children is SO appalling -- and even against animals, since neither the child nor the animal can articulate their pain nor fight back adequately. I find it even more difficult to comprehend how a father could inflict such terrible harm on his own child, his own flesh and blood. How could he do such a dreadful, selfish thing?

This case is pretty much identical to a number of cases in the UK in recent years whereby an estranged father, involved in a bitter custody battle with his ex-wife, takes the worst possible revenge on her by killing the children and then committing suicide himself. The guilty father in this case didn't kill himself -- and I'm glad, because it means he will face justice for what he has done.

This is not being sexist, or thinking that men are more capable of evil acts than women. I don't believe that: I don't believe that women are ‘nicer’ than men just because we are traditionally the nurturing sex (and I happen to be a very nurturing kind of woman). There are plenty of women who abuse, and even kill, their own children. There are plenty of women who collude with the abuse of their husband/partner against their child. Boys can be victims of emotional, physical and sexual abuse, just as much as girls. So I do not subscribe to a mentality that always portrays women as victims. (At the same time, I do believe there is a very real misogyny operating in many cultures in the world.)

It’s just that this particular phenomenon, of embittered fathers actually killing their own children in a selfish and despicable act of revenge against someone they once loved, not only distresses me: it truly perplexes me.

[Elentári]

A very disturbing story, Di.

Of all violent crimes, those where a parent takes the lives of his or her children are the most baffling. Most parents would die to protect their child. So for a mother or father to look at their son or daughter, perhaps hear their cries, and see their uncomprehending faces, and kill them, is almost too abhorrent to think about. They must have snapped, lost their mind in a moment of madness or insanity, is the most common and convenient explanation.

It isn't surprising that we tend to recoil in horror at such tragedies and seek comfort in the belief that they are isolated incidents, senseless - and, as a consequence, impossible to avert. But the truth may be slightly less palatable. Although rare, figures show that a child in the United Kingdom is far more likely to be murdered by his or her parent than by a stranger. Even more disturbing is that many experts insist that they are virtually all premeditated.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/nov/0 ... ornamartin

I thought I would do some research to find some statistics, and came up with this article:

Predominantly women, not men, kill children

http://fathersforlife.org/articles/report/resptojw.htm

which gives the following statistics:

PERPETRATOR RELATIONSHIP [3]

31.5% Female Parent Only
10.7% Male Parent Only *
21.3% Both Parents *
16.3% Female Parent and Other
1.1% Male Parent and Other *
4.5% Family Relative
6.1% Substitute Care Provider(s)
5.7% Other
2.7% Unknown



* "Male parent" in that context most likely is just about anything but a natural father.

That means that, acting alone or with others, female parents were responsible in 69.1 percent, and male parents in 33.1 percent of cases of fatal child maltreatment.

I also came across this horrifying article:

http://www.courtpsychiatrist.com/pdf/indiana_star.pdf

[Pearly Di]

What a chilling story.

That is interesting -- and shocking -- about more women killing children then men.

But the whole phenomenon of a parent (of either sex) deliberately killing their own children is ... incomprehensible.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I did move this to Lasto (which isn't just for politics). But I left a shadow, at least for now.

I literally don't have anything to say about this. And you all know how rare it is that I am left speechless.

[Pearly Di]

No problem.

I'm against the death penalty but crimes like this test that conviction to its uttermost.

[Elentári]

Di wrote:

we are traditionally the nurturing sex (and I happen to be a very nurturing kind of woman). There are plenty of women who abuse, and even kill, their own children. There are plenty of women who collude with the abuse of their husband/partner against their child.

I think one of the reasons events like this are so hard to comprehend is that it seems to be a failing of Mother Nature. Surely acts like this don't come under the heading of survival of the fitest?

[River]

No, killing your kids is a good way to become a genetic dead-end.

Parental instincts are...weird. This happens among other animals too. Mothers neglect or outright reject their young. I'm not sure what the cause is - I never studied enough zoology or animal behavior to begin to learn.

[Padme]

This reminds me of two cases I am sort of following both

Caylee Anthony


And

Riley Sawyerss (Baby Grace)

DALLAS - A couple who never reported that their toddler went missing this summer have been arrested by investigators searching for the identity of a girl whose body washed ashore in a storage bin in Galveston Bay.

Authorities are awaiting DNA test results but believe the girl is 2-year-old Riley Ann Sawyers of Spring, said Galveston County sheriff’s Maj. Ray Tuttoilmondo.

The girl’s mother, Kimberly Dawn Trenor, 19, and Royce Clyde Zeigler II, 24, reportedly told relatives that she was taken in July by someone claiming to be an Ohio social worker. But they never told police she was missing, Tuttoilmondo said.

Riley, imho, was killed by both her mother and her stepfather. Her mother did nothing to protect her own child. nothing, in fact condoned the behavior.


As for Caylee Anthony....
Well I could not be on that Jury because I think Casey killed her, even if it was accidently. No one should ever chloroform a child to make the child go to sleep so momma coud get her freak on.

[Nin]

It may seem highly unimagianble for us, but infanticide especially of small children has a long history and for many centuries was an admitted practice of birth regulation - especially in Antiquity, in ancient Greece. I mention this so that it cannot be put aside as barbarian or pre-cultural practice (I doubt anybody will question the high cultural level of the Antique Greek society).

Parental love as we know and feel it, mother-love is a cultural product, imho. A few years ago a French historian (Elisabeth Badinter) published a book about moternal love and instincts showing that there druing millenaries there is no historical evidence for maternal love: children died young and loads of them, were put to work extrememly early and even from very young age on and even in wealthy families given to strangers to be nourished, taught etc. It was on the contrary a sign of richness to give your child away to be nourished and to hire someone to educate it. The very idea that childhood is a precious time which has to be protected rises in the 18th century.

I don't want to excuse child murder - it's horrible. But, however unlikely it may seem for us, it's not a natural law to love children, not even your own.

[Pearly Di]

I don't want to excuse child murder - it's horrible. But, however unlikely it may seem for us, it's not a natural law to love children, not even your own.

Then what do we make of the 'mama bear' syndrome?

I fully accept that child abuse is nothing new. I also accept that the modern, rather more sentimental view of childhood, contrasts sharply with older cultural attitudes towards the treatment of children.

But I am not convinced it's not 'a natural law' to love your own children. The emotions involved in parental love seem a little too primitive to me to be dismissed as entirely cultural.

Of course things can go wrong ... as they do in the animal world, e.g. when, say, a sow eats her young, if she is distressed.

I'm not a parent but I've never forgotten the primal emotion I felt when I held my two day old niece in my arms. It was probably one of the most intense experiences of my life: I felt like I was holding my own daughter in my arms. The intensity of my emotion completely took me aback: it was as intense as any sexual feeling. I felt like this fragile little scrap of new life was my own child and the thought of any harm happening to her was unbearable.

That fierce protectiveness came out of nowhere: it came from my gut. You can't tell me that was merely cultural, or conditioning.

The baby wasn't even related to me biologically: this was my adopted sister's child I was holding, we're not related by blood.

It made no difference.


Just some thoughts ...

[axordil]

There are studies by other academics that come to other very different conclusions. What I think is self-evident is that there are a range of maternal instinct strengths, and that Western culture generally at least gives lip service to praising one end of that spectrum.

I also think some people are badly wired and shouldn't reproduce. But it's very difficult to test for that.

[Pearly Di]

I also think some people are badly wired and shouldn't reproduce. But it's very difficult to test for that.

Impossible, probably.

[axordil]

I think in very few cases does someone wake up in the morning knowing they're going to kill their child. Usually in those cases it's precisely because they're going to do in the whole family and themselves. But that's not how most kids get killed by their parents.

[Elentári]

Obviously, some women do have stronger maternal instincts than others, and it's quite possible that the women who commit these murders failed to bond with their child. It's far more common than one imagines.

[Elentári]

Axordil wrote:

I think in very few cases does someone wake up in the morning knowing they're going to kill their child. Usually in those cases it's precisely because they're going to do in the whole family and themselves. But that's not how most kids get killed by their parents.

In my first post here I quoted an article which says the opposite:

Although rare, figures show that a child in the United Kingdom is far more likely to be murdered by his or her parent than by a stranger. Even more disturbing is that many experts insist that they are virtually all premeditated.

[Maria]

There were times after several months of many hours of colic per day where dashing the infant against the wall would have been a relief.

I consider it a major accomplishment that all three of my children lived and were not abused. Unconsolable screaming at the top of their little lungs for hours and hours daily for months on end was a horrible experience. To this day I can't listen to an infant cry without a shudder.

I'm not looking forward to grandchildren, even.

Not that any are scheduled, but still.....

[Ellienor]

My childbirth instructor (who is also a parenting coach) once said, "it is totally normal to imagine throwing your child out the window. But it is abnormal to actually do it."

Stuck in my mind with my own colicky child. Maria, you had three colicky ones? The second was not colicky but as you would know it, he's actually turned out to be the most challenging one.

My understanding is that in Rome, at least, there was a paterfamilias with the power of life or death over his family. NObody including the state could contest his actions, whatever they were. Mothers may have felt more protective of their infants, but they did not have a say in who lived and who died. And this culture did "expose" damaged infants.

(I should probably check all this up but don't want to take the time, so take with a grain of salt)

[axordil]

I just don't know about that, Elen. Perhaps that is so foreign to me that I can't believe it, though I know incredulity is no defense. I know, like Maria, that flashes of anger at a child are very, very real--perhaps I'm externalizing my own deep fears of losing control.

[Nin]

I understand you, Maria. Although, I do look forward to having little children in my life again. (And in some regards would like to have a baby RIGHT NOW)

I know some people reject the idea of feelings being cultural quite strongly (I remember Yovargas doing so about monogamy and jealousy), but when you study history or ethnology, it becomes hard to admit that any feelings are predisposed. You have just too much variety concerning all major social behaviour.

That fierce protectiveness came out of nowhere: it came from my gut. You can't tell me that was merely cultural, or conditioning. The baby wasn't even related to me biologically: this was my adopted sister's child I was holding, we're not related by blood.

Well, the very fact that it was not your own and yet you had so strong feelings speaks for parental love not being "inborn". If it was, this strong, protective love would be reserved for our own children.... And it's easy to love a baby when you hold it for a few minutes. It's harder after three or four nights wihtout sleep, infected nipples and a toddler who tore his nappy of to start smeering the content on the wall...

Often, child-muders happen with very young or socially very disadvantaged parents who are not prepared to the amount of work and the loss of freedom coming with a baby. In Geneva, we had a huge scandal a few years ago when a young mother left her two year old alone and sleeping in the appartment to go out dancing, then got arrested by the police (she was on probation), did not tell the police that the child was home alone (shame, fear to be judged for letting a child alone). The little girl died of starvation after a few days. This is murder by neglect. The other side is in your first story. It's revenge. The child in those stories (often nasty divorces) are instruments to hurt the spouse. In both cases, they are seen like objects.

Although I try to show that maternal feelings are in my mind not something that we are born with, I feel quite strongly about the subject: on the day when I left the hospital with my younger son a mother had thrown her new-born out of the window in the same hospital. During that day, I did not know, the personal of the hospital did not show or tell anything to the other young mothers. I admire them for that! But I think of it sometimes, of that child, born the same day as mine.

And I confirm ellienor's information about Ancient Rome (same goes for ancient Greece). Also, it was judged preferable to let a child die if you already had the number you could feed - a way of birth-control actually.

[Ellienor]

It's harder after three or four nights wihtout sleep, infected nipples and a toddler who tore his nappy of to start smeering the content on the wall...

Amen, sister.

I very rarely yell at my kids, and apply "love and logic" parenting (A money-making scheme for its founder but it really does work). But the other day my three and half year old was extremely overstimulated having been to a birthday party with loud blowers for all these blow-up slides, bouncy castles, etc. (he's pretty sensitive to noise) and had eaten too much cake. He was just a mess and I had been trying to deal with him and get him down for his nap. The last straw for me was when he needed to go the bathroom before nap (the usual routine) but refused to do so and then peed on me deliberately when I was trying to help him. Major flash of anger for me.

Sigh. After I vented my spleen for a few moments he really was taken aback and I instantly felt terrible. Then I felt the huge flash of love and how could I have yelled at my child when he was so exhausted?



And I am 43 and quite a calm person with a great partner for a husband and reasonable financial security. I can't imagine coping with the day in and day out stresses without all of these things.