<waves back> Hi,
Hobby!
It seems I did find my way here, eventually
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
. It doesn't hurt that I gave up TORc for Lent.... But I really signed up because I saw there was an
Athrabeth thread...I should post in that at some point! But since I dropped out of the Movies forum on TORc before Fellowship was released (and only came back after RotK was out), I do think it is fun to join in the discussion here.
The abilities displayed by Elrond and Galadriel during the "teleconference" are at least potentially feasible.
I have not read the essay in HoME (Osanwe-kenta, or something) that discusses these mental abilities. But just looking at LotR alone...
Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond have a "silent" conversation on the last night before they part ways (between Fangorn and Rivendell).
Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of fogotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.
Granted, this "conversation" took place when they were together, in person, and could look from eye to eye. A similar ability is revealed by Gandalf when he seemingly reads Frodo's mind in Rivendell:
'You seem to know a great deal already,' said Frodo. 'I have not spoken to the others about the Barrow. At first it was too horrible, and afterwards there were other things to think about. How do you know about it?'
'You have talked long in your sleep, Frodo,' said Gandalf gently, 'and it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory. Do not worry! ...
But there are other references to such abilities when the person in question is
not present, is in fact far away. The first instance is, surprisingly, Frodo. Gandalf had just described his capture by Saruman at Orthanc to the Council of Elrond:
'I saw you!' cried Frodo. 'You were walking backwards and forwards. The moon shone in your hair.'
Gandalf paused astonished and looked at him. 'It was only a dream,' said Frodo, 'but it suddenly came back to me. I had quite forgotten it. It came some time agao; after I left the Shire, I think.'
In fact, it was his dream on the
first night in the House of Tom Bombadil
<waves>. I imagine that hobbits don't generally have this ability (to see things far away), but Frodo does (in his dreams). I don't know whether it is because Frodo is just such a special hobbit, or because he has had the Ring since adulthood. But obviously, he does have this gift of foresight, or true sight (he dreams of the Sea before ever seeing it, and he dreams of the 'rain curtain' at the beginning of the Quest).
But there are so many special cases wrapped around Frodo, I need to move on to Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf, the ones who 'naturally' have this ability!
I know Elrond makes a comment about certain areas being dark to him - he can't see into Mordor, for instance. But I can't remember where - I didn't find his reference to the Shadow in a brief skim of the Council and the setting out from Rivendell, sorry.
Gandalf and Galadriel's quotes are easier to find!
Gandalf helped Frodo at Amon Hen, even though he was far away. He was the Voice saying, "Take it off, fool!" (the "fool" should be the give-away, there
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
)
'Some things [the eagle] has seen, and others I have seen myself. The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place [in Fangorn], and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought....'
later, about Saruman (who is in Isengard)
'I look into his mind and I see his doubt.'
But of course Gandalf is a wizard - and Gandalf the White doubly so
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
. His abilities may be beyond that of the elves. But it turns out they are not.
'I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'
This is at the Mirror - so maybe she uses her mirror for part of this. But her claim to know Sauron's mind 'even while speaking to' Frodo implies that she is using some mental ability (no doubt enhanced by her Ring).
And let us not forget Galadriel's messages (born by Gandalf):
Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar?...
The Dead watch the road that leads to the Sea.
and later, when Halbarad shows up with the Dúnedain:
'They answered a summons, as you heard,' said Gimli. 'Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred. Let the Dúnedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess.'
'Nay, Galadriel,' said Legolas. 'Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company from the North?'
'Yes, you have it,' said Gimli. 'The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires.'
What on earth is going on here? Both Elrond and Galadriel are (separately, seemingly) reminding Aragorn about the Paths of the Dead. Galadriel sent a message to Rivendell in no time flat (seriously, the journey would take too long to get any literal message through). And the message said to go to
Rohan - but they must have set out before Aragorn even reached Rohan! And why was there 'doubt' about the source of the message?
- Chronology:
Feb. 16th: Company departs Lothlórien.
Feb 17th: Gandalf arrives in Lothlórien.
Feb. 27th: Aragorn et al. enter Rohan.
March 1st: Gandalf reunited with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in Fangorn.
March 6th: The Dúnedain arrive in Rohan and meet Aragorn.
(February has 30 days)
Contrast this with the nearly 2 months it took Elladan and Elrohir to travel to Lórien and back after the Council of Elrond. It took the Fellowship two weeks to walk from Rivendell to Hollin (with no delays).
Basically, this passage is the elven teleconference! Galadriel 'told' Elrond about the Company after they left Lothlórien, and Elrond passed the message on to Halbarad (and his own children). Elrohir would not have mentioned the Paths of the Dead if Galadriel hadn't mentioned them to Elrond.
So, my problem with that scene in the movie is
not that Galadriel (in Lothlórien) seems to be talking to Elrond (in Rivendell). I can accept some level of Elvish magic - after all, they both predict the future very naturally, and that is fine. What bugs me is what they say - it's all stupid stuff! Galadriel is creating dramatic tension, yes, but she's
wrong in her foreboding. Couldn't her perceived threat have been more ambiguous? Couldn't she have said something like "the Quest is too much for Frodo's strength - you know this. He will fail." [Okay, yeah - don't let me write the dialogue either!] But, at least something with implications or ambiguity - "destroyed" or "failed" or "cost" - not "death" or "his life." Something that
sounds like "he's gonna die" but that could really mean "he's going to claim the Ring" or "he will be captured" or "there is no way into Mordor." The "recap" aspect also seems a bit dense - like, duh, we knew this already, and we can tell you are just recapping! I guess I feel the same way about that as I do about Faramir's stupid remarks on the map "I know what is going on everywhere in Middle Earth even though I would have no conceivable way of knowing this, just so I can show you, the viewer, where I am in relation to the other action happening at Helm's Deep." It's clunky.
Oh, and I will agree with whomever said that the text describing Helm's Deep is confusing. When I read it to my brothers, I drew them a diagram
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
. Well, actually, it was just a picture, but I labeled the Deeping Wall, the culvert, the gate, etc. It makes so much more sense if you have a picture.