The Hall of Fire DoS Review Thread

[Alatar]

Thanks, Al!

But now I'm very worried.

And it looks like most of the OTT stuff, like the dwarf confrontation with Smaug, was constructed basically at the last minute in pick-ups.

It may be safe to say that if PJ is given too much time to fiddle with and add to his films, after principal shooting is done, he tends to make the film worse.

The confrontation sounds worse than I could have possibly imagined.

Perhaps it's best to walk out of the cinema after the Bilbo and Smaug dialogue, which sounds like it was amazing?

The dwarf confrontation is too big a set piece to have been constructed in Pickups. I think it was a bad idea, but I don't think it was last minute.

Armitage confirmed in an interview (forget where) that PJ constructed it after the three-film decision, and it was shot entirely during pick-ups.

Doesn't come across that way.

[Alatar]

Questions:

1. Is there still a flashback to Girion, and how does it play?

2. If yes to the above, is it (and the beginning) the only flashback material?

3. Is the King Under the Mountain prophecy still in, and does Bard recite it? If so, what's the context of that scene?

Thanks!

ETA:

4. What about the music? Noone seems to be commenting on it. For example, is the Smaug material intact, with the Balinese bells and all that?

There is an extended flashback to Girion that sets up both the black arrow, the bare patch and Bards backstory. It worked really well for me.

From memory, those are the only flashbacks, yes.

The prophecy is in. Bard is wondering why the dwarves are there then hears one of them call Thorin by name. He recognises it and rushes off to find a tapestry of the line of Thror. While looking at it, he hears other townspeople talking about dwarves in town and wondering if they are part of the prophesy. He suddenly realises he's harbouring the King under the Mountain and that he intends to travel to Erebor and possibly wake the dragon. This leads directly into the scene from the trailers.

Honestly I wasn't listening to the music during the Smaug scene. I had ears only for Cumberbatch and Freeman.

[Alatar]

Exactly. Only there are answers to that last question that don't involve turning the film into a Star Wars prequel.

Its certainly not that. It has its issues, but its not in the same league as the prequels.

[Alatar]

One thing that tempers my fears about the ending is that I generally love the look of Erebor, in all its Petra-Angkor Wat-Egyptian inspired glory. It evokes those feelings of ancient depth that Tolkien excelled at.

Do we at least get some great shots of Erebor during the dwarf-dragon fight, or is it mostly a CGI blur?

Some great shots of the interior. We see the forge, parts of the mine and the gallery.

[Alatar]

So I read elsewhere, that Tauriel doesn't heal Tilda anymore: that was replaced by her healing Kili in the pick ups...

I can't help but wonder how the original version would have held up.

Given PJ's track record, I also have to wonder if Kili "fake dies" before being healed...

He does not.

[Alatar]

So I read elsewhere, that Tauriel doesn't heal Tilda anymore: that was replaced by her healing Kili in the pick ups...

Can't help but wonder how the original version would have held up.

Responding somewhat blindly since I have seen the film, and likely will never see the Tilda healing, but I suspect it would have been better.

I doubt it actually. Kili and Tauriel have a sort of bond by this stage. Tilda would have been just a random kid to her.

[Alatar]

Overall, it sounds so far that there is the basis of a wonderful film in there, it is just buried beneath a lot of extraneous padding and frills....and I don't just mean the parts that are true to the book!

I think Al is right in that once we have the extended versions of all three movies there could be a truly great fan edit waiting to be revealed...

Actually I think this one is pretty lean, apart from the Dwarf confrontation. None of the rest is overlong, and much of it feels compressed.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Exactly. Only there are answers to that last question that don't involve turning the film into a Star Wars prequel.

Its certainly not that. It has its issues, but its not in the same league as the prequels.

Sorry - I was just referring to the climax, which you likened to the droid factory scene.

[Passdagas the Brown]

From Telemachos:

edit: a good comparison for the action sequences are the more outrageous moments from the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise.

I'm really considering staying home at this point. Tel also mentions that there's barely any emotional resonance in the film, and that "characters" are just not the point this time.

He likes goofy action films, and so enjoyed it.

I'm going to hate it. I'm fully convinced of that now.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm going to post this here, rather than the other review thread, since it is a fan review, even though it isn't an HoF review. It is a review from Arannir at TORN, and I thought it was very good (particularly for someone writing in not their native language, at 4:30 in the morning):

A movie for the Jackson-eye and the Tolkien-heart (and a bit too much of some things)


The Tolkien Moments

Many have said it before - this movie will divide Tolkien fans. Many who will like and embrace some of the changes might be called PJ fanboys, easy-to-please or simply Hollywood-victims by some, while the other way round people may call people with issues about the movie haters who are not open enough for the changes.

I hope it will calm down after a while because I think all of us can find a lot of pure Tolkien in this and I still do not dare think what this whole franchise might have become with another creative team.

But nobody has to be pleased with what we get or even be grateful for it.Both sites will eventually have to respect the other if we want to return to a constructive discussion of these movies (I am sure it will be possible eventually, if I remember the situation after LotR correctly).

But back to the Tolkien moments... I think Beorn, the atmosphere of Mirkwood (the editing and cinematography here is first class), Thranduil's Halls and Laketown should be scenes that even the most ardent critic of these movies and what they did to the novel might occasionally watch on Youtube for decades to come. They simply have the handwriting of the great Professor all over them - as to many characters such as our Hobbit, Thranduil or the Master. Others might be different to the novel but will feel very Tolkienesque too most I am sure - such as Thorin or Bard.

What always works very well to let the Middle-earth spirit come alive are historical references. Girion references and flashbacks, the dead dwarves in front of the sealed gate, hints at Fili and Kili's mother, ruins of a greater city within the structures of Laketown etc. However, we do not get the time anymore to actually look at locations long enough to take in their feeling to full extent. Sometimes it is quite harsh how we are thrown into a new surrounding.

The biggest Tolkien moment - and it is telling that it is yet again a scene some critics call "too slow" is the conversation between Smaug and Bilbo. Pure joy. Pure Tolkien. Well done.


Smaug

I have come to terms with him not dying in DoS. Although I predicted it long ago, I slightly changed my mind when I realized there wasn't a major Dol Guldur climax in this movie. I could not really see them go for the most massive cliffhanger imaginable. But they did - and it works. I never heard such a "OHHH!" in the audience followed by thundering applause (we do speak about a GERMAN audience here ). It works because you simply want to follow Smaug's flight into TABA right away.

And I am sure TABA will benefit from it, having Smaug's demise and what happens after it (imho the single MOST important story aspect of the novel) in ONE movie.

Smaug is simply what he needed to be and thanks to Crumberbatch even a little bit more. He could have broken the whole trilogy. He works and that is an achievement that would make other franchises with less expectations from different sites loaded on them a critics' favorite instantly.


Tauriel, Legolas and "the other man"

Tauriel just works. If there is a character we did not need, it is Legolas, not Tauriel (however, Legolas just works the masses... when he came the cinema just roared). She is the perfect opponent to Thranduil, especially from the political point of view that will become SO essential in TABA. I am actually convinced that she is an improvement. An improvement the Professor would not have just hated, imho. He would at least have thought about it, had it been discussed with him, I think.

And what also works is her relationship with Kili. Both actors bring a very natural feel to it... everybody knows it will never be possible. But it is not so much about actually going for a relationship and making little Taurilis. It is about the curiosity those two show for another race that their people has become so astranged to. Astragement that in the bigger picture, transferred to the peoples themselves, hurts them in the coming war and plays into Sauron's nine-fingered hands.

That is why I also have no problem with her "lumiating" when she heals Kili. It underlines this idea of the deep differences between the two races ("she was far away in the starlight..."), the wonder for Kili - all this must lead to very high stakes and heartbreaking scenes in TABA. In the movieverse it is simply totally irrelevant how Tauriel's heritage might be connected to any light surrounding her. This scene made people cry in my screening. It just works. The movie shows clearly that she is no High-Elf... the superficial glowing thing does not change that. People in the audience imho will just connect the radiating with the sight of a dying person who sees one of the fading wonders left in the world - the Elven race - that stands out when the darkness of death embraces a mortal.

Unfortunately PJ and Co gave the opponents of the whole idea some reason to complain with some (not much, but it is there) bad dialogue. I wished they had been more aware here of how hard this scenes will be to take for some and not make it harder by Kili's horrible oneliner about his pants.


Gandalf

His fight against Sauron was the absolute highlight for me. Amazing. The way Sauron's form turns into the pupil of the Eye is one of the best scenes in all Middle-earth movies. Gandalf's display of magic is also very well handled.

The High Fells scene feels a bit out of place without the Nazgûl actually showing up... I hope they will have something good to do in TABA. But what?

Gandalf facing the Nine instead of Azog would have been better... the Amon Sûl moment was greatly missed imho.


CGI

I watched the movie in HFR 3D - it was such a joy. Scenes like Bolg and Azog interacting left me totally immersed, I only realized after it was over that that had been two CGI characters talking. Also moments such as the Necromancer is first class, as is, of course and already mentioned, Smaug.

I also really liked the gold animations during the finale - and especially how Smaug flies into the sky, shaking the gold from himself.

What did not look that believable - but it is not so much the CGI but the idea itself - is the golden dwarf statue. Why? The moment Smaug tells Bilbo he wants him to see Laketown burn was perfect for him to leave the mountain. SMaug's gold bath is a very very good idea, but that could have been acomplished by the ovens. We did not need the statue, really.


Issues

As I said, despite mostly great written dialogue (the "If this is to end in fire, we will all burn together" is simply the best kind of pathos you can get and very much Tolkien imho) ther are the occasional missteps. Also, the stand between Smaug and the dwarves is too long and undermined the otherwise outstanding CGI in this movie.

PJ, thankfully, was more harsh with himself in terms of editing - Thrain is not needed and will be a great EE addition - but not always harsh enough. Especially the last minutes of the Smaug confrontation could have been trimmed and would have made for a more perfect climax. No gold statue, much shorter Legolas vs. Bolg fight (why is NOONE waking up in Laketown???), last 30-60 seconds of almost each action sequence trimmed.

Last issue - the music. I got more and more disappointed (on a high level) by the DoS soundtrack but thought it would play out nicely in the movie. It did in moments such as the Woodland Realm and Laketown reveals... there was a huge lack of a really big theme, however, in moments such as Smaug leaving Erebor. Smaug's theme, though so prominent, sometimes did not seem to get through. Maybe it was all a bit too much to take in and I will change my mind during a second viewing.


Moments of glory

- Bree and PJ cameo
- Beorn's shapeshifting
- Laketown introduction
- Gandalf vs. Sauron
- Tauriel healing Kili
- Smaug shaking the gold of himself and leaving Erebor
- the Laketowners seeing the fire "inside the mountain"


Cringeworthy moments

- I could have anything in my trousers.
- Legolas' stupid looks
- Thorin surfing a river of gold
- the statue (the idea is great, but it takes from the Bilbo/Smaug climax about Laketown)



Verdict: This movie goes farer away from Tolkien than anything we have seen from Jackson so far, yet it nails the Tolkien feeling very often. The Tolkien moments are almost all there and work perfectly, while smart additions make the story more urgent, more adult and ultimately more human. The best vistas of this movie year (together with those of Gravity) and some very good screenwriting cannot fully overplay the long running time with an overdone ending and some few but apparant sloppy writing in between. It is a very good adaptation that fails to be a masterpiece of a movie because it is not strict enough when it comes to editing action sequences and keeping some restraints with - viewed without context - generally good ideas. It is a movie for the Tolkien fans after all, just not for each and every kind of them.

Score: around 80% (AUJ: 75% - FotR: 100% - TTT: 90% - RotK: 85%)


(For comparison, so some might be able to guess my taste better, some other movies I rated this year: The Butler: 50%, Gravity: 85%, Thor: 55%, Pacific Rim: 60%, Frozen: 70%, Catching Fire: 70%).

He later added: "And btw: I forgot to mention the great prologue!"

He also posted a list of specific character moments to counter the idea that it is nonstop action that sounds really good. I'm not going to post it here, because I think it is getting a bit too spoily.

[Smaug's voice]

Alatar,

In total how many (big or small) action sequences are there?
And can you give an approximation of for how long each action sequence goes on?

You see the thought of DOS being an action movies and the constant comparison to Pirates is constantly cooling my anticipation (regardless of how great the first pirates movie was)

ETA: So another question:
Will you call DOS a great action movie based in middle earth or a great middle-earth movie with lots of action?

[Smaug's voice]

I find Arannir's review encouraging though I am quite shocked to see the healing scene in his top scenes.

And just so you know, I have alwats supported the Smaug dying in TABA idea for many different reasons.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Sorry, but we're hearing from nearly everyone that there's barely any emotional resonance in the film, and he's describing people crying during the Tauriel-Kili healing scene...

If you love Peter Jackson's films, and you like his style, then you'll probably like the film. There's no possible way I will react that positively to what sounds like non-stop outrageous Pirates of the Caribbean dreck.

And I don't find it convincing that these character moments counter the "non stop action" notion that nearly every reviewer, including fan reviewers like Tele, say is the case.

Plus, even this guy admits how "harsh" it is that the viewer is not given any time to linger on anything, before we're thrown into a new location and action set-piece (a term of art that I hate).

I really have to go into this with a full acceptance that it is probably the emptiest of the five films, with the least amount of grace and charm. Only then might I come out with some minor level of appreciation.

ETA: From Lewenhart at TORC:

I liked it significantly LESS than AUJ. This film felt far less like Tolkien's world to me--or even like the movie version of Middle-earth most of us love.

In fact, there were some sequences and beats in this movie that suffered from "prequel-itis" ala the Star Wars prequels. Too goofy and overlong. Character moments are almost nonexistant. Instead we get ridiculous action sequences which--although fun--are so over-the-top that they bring you right out of the "reality" of Middle-earth, completely undermining WETA's typically excellent production design. As a result, Middle-earth for the first time feels fake.

Believe it or not, the Dwarves are even less distringuishable in this movie than they were in AUJ. A few of them didn't even have a single line (or at least non that were memorable).

Bilbo.... *sigh* It's a complete shame because Martin Freeman is so excellent at Bilbo when he gets any significant screen time. But he's completely under-utilized and it's a complete shame. I would say there is much less Bilbo in this film than in AUJ.

Upon further reflection this morning, I was very disappointed in this film.

[Smaug's voice]

Well yeah. Him describing people crying at the healing scene seems somewhat off.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Well, you know, Germans ... .

[Passdagas the Brown]

Yeah, they're a weepy lot.

[Elentári]

Whilst I am (very) encouraged by Arannir's review, it really does go to show that you can't judge by other people's opinions, and that we are all going to have very individual reactions and responses to this movie...

[Elentári]

Further to Arannir's review, he has also posted a list of "meaningful character moments" (just for PtB!)

They're very spoilerish so I'll hide then for those who want to wait...

Hidden text.

- Bilbo realizing something is weird about the ring after he kills a small spiderling which comes too close to the Ring with a lot of anger for his character
- Thorin's shock when the door does not open and Bilbo is left alone trying to get behind the secret of the door
- Balin almost starting to cry when he enters Erebor and Thorin asks him whether he remembers the wonders of Erebor
- the scene from the trailers with Balin saying to Thorin "Bilbo. His name is Bilbo."
- Fili deciding to stay with his brother, against Thorin's whish (and Oin as the healer before that)
- Bofur being too late for the boat that takes them out of Esgaroth
- Master/Alfrid's talk about democracy
- Bard's daughter asking Bard whether they all have to die when the Laketowners hear the Mountain "shaking" for the first time
- the conversation between Tauriel and Kili about Kili's mother and that he promised her to come home

- Bard recalling the prophecy about the Mountain King's return... while whispers and rumours about Thorin spread in Laketown.

ETA: I only read Arannir's thread on TORn this morning and forgot overnight that V had already mentioned these and decided against posting them here!

[Alatar]

I'm going to post this here, rather than the other review thread, since it is a fan review, even though it isn't an HoF review. It is a review from Arannir at TORN, and I thought it was very good (particularly for someone writing in not their native language, at 4:30 in the morning):

A movie for the Jackson-eye and the Tolkien-heart (and a bit too much of some things)


The Tolkien Moments

Many have said it before - this movie will divide Tolkien fans. Many who will like and embrace some of the changes might be called PJ fanboys, easy-to-please or simply Hollywood-victims by some, while the other way round people may call people with issues about the movie haters who are not open enough for the changes.

I hope it will calm down after a while because I think all of us can find a lot of pure Tolkien in this and I still do not dare think what this whole franchise might have become with another creative team.

But nobody has to be pleased with what we get or even be grateful for it.Both sites will eventually have to respect the other if we want to return to a constructive discussion of these movies (I am sure it will be possible eventually, if I remember the situation after LotR correctly).

But back to the Tolkien moments... I think Beorn, the atmosphere of Mirkwood (the editing and cinematography here is first class), Thranduil's Halls and Laketown should be scenes that even the most ardent critic of these movies and what they did to the novel might occasionally watch on Youtube for decades to come. They simply have the handwriting of the great Professor all over them - as to many characters such as our Hobbit, Thranduil or the Master. Others might be different to the novel but will feel very Tolkienesque too most I am sure - such as Thorin or Bard.

What always works very well to let the Middle-earth spirit come alive are historical references. Girion references and flashbacks, the dead dwarves in front of the sealed gate, hints at Fili and Kili's mother, ruins of a greater city within the structures of Laketown etc. However, we do not get the time anymore to actually look at locations long enough to take in their feeling to full extent. Sometimes it is quite harsh how we are thrown into a new surrounding.

The biggest Tolkien moment - and it is telling that it is yet again a scene some critics call "too slow" is the conversation between Smaug and Bilbo. Pure joy. Pure Tolkien. Well done.


Smaug

I have come to terms with him not dying in DoS. Although I predicted it long ago, I slightly changed my mind when I realized there wasn't a major Dol Guldur climax in this movie. I could not really see them go for the most massive cliffhanger imaginable. But they did - and it works. I never heard such a "OHHH!" in the audience followed by thundering applause (we do speak about a GERMAN audience here ). It works because you simply want to follow Smaug's flight into TABA right away.

And I am sure TABA will benefit from it, having Smaug's demise and what happens after it (imho the single MOST important story aspect of the novel) in ONE movie.

Smaug is simply what he needed to be and thanks to Crumberbatch even a little bit more. He could have broken the whole trilogy. He works and that is an achievement that would make other franchises with less expectations from different sites loaded on them a critics' favorite instantly.


Tauriel, Legolas and "the other man"

Tauriel just works. If there is a character we did not need, it is Legolas, not Tauriel (however, Legolas just works the masses... when he came the cinema just roared). She is the perfect opponent to Thranduil, especially from the political point of view that will become SO essential in TABA. I am actually convinced that she is an improvement. An improvement the Professor would not have just hated, imho. He would at least have thought about it, had it been discussed with him, I think.

And what also works is her relationship with Kili. Both actors bring a very natural feel to it... everybody knows it will never be possible. But it is not so much about actually going for a relationship and making little Taurilis. It is about the curiosity those two show for another race that their people has become so astranged to. Astragement that in the bigger picture, transferred to the peoples themselves, hurts them in the coming war and plays into Sauron's nine-fingered hands.

That is why I also have no problem with her "lumiating" when she heals Kili. It underlines this idea of the deep differences between the two races ("she was far away in the starlight..."), the wonder for Kili - all this must lead to very high stakes and heartbreaking scenes in TABA. In the movieverse it is simply totally irrelevant how Tauriel's heritage might be connected to any light surrounding her. This scene made people cry in my screening. It just works. The movie shows clearly that she is no High-Elf... the superficial glowing thing does not change that. People in the audience imho will just connect the radiating with the sight of a dying person who sees one of the fading wonders left in the world - the Elven race - that stands out when the darkness of death embraces a mortal.

Unfortunately PJ and Co gave the opponents of the whole idea some reason to complain with some (not much, but it is there) bad dialogue. I wished they had been more aware here of how hard this scenes will be to take for some and not make it harder by Kili's horrible oneliner about his pants.


Gandalf

His fight against Sauron was the absolute highlight for me. Amazing. The way Sauron's form turns into the pupil of the Eye is one of the best scenes in all Middle-earth movies. Gandalf's display of magic is also very well handled.

The High Fells scene feels a bit out of place without the Nazgûl actually showing up... I hope they will have something good to do in TABA. But what?

Gandalf facing the Nine instead of Azog would have been better... the Amon Sûl moment was greatly missed imho.


CGI

I watched the movie in HFR 3D - it was such a joy. Scenes like Bolg and Azog interacting left me totally immersed, I only realized after it was over that that had been two CGI characters talking. Also moments such as the Necromancer is first class, as is, of course and already mentioned, Smaug.

I also really liked the gold animations during the finale - and especially how Smaug flies into the sky, shaking the gold from himself.

What did not look that believable - but it is not so much the CGI but the idea itself - is the golden dwarf statue. Why? The moment Smaug tells Bilbo he wants him to see Laketown burn was perfect for him to leave the mountain. SMaug's gold bath is a very very good idea, but that could have been acomplished by the ovens. We did not need the statue, really.


Issues

As I said, despite mostly great written dialogue (the "If this is to end in fire, we will all burn together" is simply the best kind of pathos you can get and very much Tolkien imho) ther are the occasional missteps. Also, the stand between Smaug and the dwarves is too long and undermined the otherwise outstanding CGI in this movie.

PJ, thankfully, was more harsh with himself in terms of editing - Thrain is not needed and will be a great EE addition - but not always harsh enough. Especially the last minutes of the Smaug confrontation could have been trimmed and would have made for a more perfect climax. No gold statue, much shorter Legolas vs. Bolg fight (why is NOONE waking up in Laketown???), last 30-60 seconds of almost each action sequence trimmed.

Last issue - the music. I got more and more disappointed (on a high level) by the DoS soundtrack but thought it would play out nicely in the movie. It did in moments such as the Woodland Realm and Laketown reveals... there was a huge lack of a really big theme, however, in moments such as Smaug leaving Erebor. Smaug's theme, though so prominent, sometimes did not seem to get through. Maybe it was all a bit too much to take in and I will change my mind during a second viewing.


Moments of glory

- Bree and PJ cameo
- Beorn's shapeshifting
- Laketown introduction
- Gandalf vs. Sauron
- Tauriel healing Kili
- Smaug shaking the gold of himself and leaving Erebor
- the Laketowners seeing the fire "inside the mountain"


Cringeworthy moments

- I could have anything in my trousers.
- Legolas' stupid looks
- Thorin surfing a river of gold
- the statue (the idea is great, but it takes from the Bilbo/Smaug climax about Laketown)



Verdict: This movie goes farer away from Tolkien than anything we have seen from Jackson so far, yet it nails the Tolkien feeling very often. The Tolkien moments are almost all there and work perfectly, while smart additions make the story more urgent, more adult and ultimately more human. The best vistas of this movie year (together with those of Gravity) and some very good screenwriting cannot fully overplay the long running time with an overdone ending and some few but apparant sloppy writing in between. It is a very good adaptation that fails to be a masterpiece of a movie because it is not strict enough when it comes to editing action sequences and keeping some restraints with - viewed without context - generally good ideas. It is a movie for the Tolkien fans after all, just not for each and every kind of them.

Score: around 80% (AUJ: 75% - FotR: 100% - TTT: 90% - RotK: 85%)


(For comparison, so some might be able to guess my taste better, some other movies I rated this year: The Butler: 50%, Gravity: 85%, Thor: 55%, Pacific Rim: 60%, Frozen: 70%, Catching Fire: 70%).

He later added: "And btw: I forgot to mention the great prologue!"

He also posted a list of specific character moments to counter the idea that it is nonstop action that sounds really good. I'm not going to post it here, because I think it is getting a bit too spoily.

I agree with pretty much everything in this review, including the Tauriel stuff.

[Alatar]

Alatar,

In total how many (big or small) action sequences are there?
And can you give an approximation of for how long each action sequence goes on?

You see the thought of DOS being an action movies and the constant comparison to Pirates is constantly cooling my anticipation (regardless of how great the first pirates movie was)

ETA: So another question:
Will you call DOS a great action movie based in middle earth or a great middle-earth movie with lots of action?

Tough to say.

Orc chase to Beorns house, less than 1 min
Mirkwood Spider attack - 5-10 mins
Barrel Chase - 10 mins maybe?
Latetown attack - 5 mins
Dwarf confrontation - 15-20 mins but intercut with Laketown

Honestly, thats just best guess though. Most of them didn't feel that long, apart from the Dwarf Confrontation, and thats maybe just cause I wasn't enjoying it.