I'm afraid the whole house of cards topples (for me) on closer examination.
It turns out the type portraits all spring from the Myers fourth letter. Having no way to get at the complex mental dynamics represented by Jung's concepts, but wanting very much to organize them into a usable form, she postulated an organizing principle which she called orientation to the outer world.
'Orientation' seems to me an inaccurate word to use for this principle, which is simply -- do you prefer your life structured or unstructured (my paraphrase). But of much greater concern to me -- and I can't understand how everyone just accepted it -- she labeled the two opposing poles of this outward orientation, 'judging' and 'perceiving', even though the idea of preferring more or less structure in one's life doesn't relate to the meanings of those words. This places the whole construct firmly in the realm of nonsense for me.
Why did Myers choose to call the poles of the outward orientation mechanism 'perceiving' and 'judging', even though that (imo) makes no sense? She chose to do so because Mr. Jung had called his two pairs of mental functions 'judging' (F/T) and 'perceiving' (T/F) (as indeed, they were differing methods of judging and perceiving). I will refer to the Myers poles as 'jam' and 'pickles', since that makes every bit as much sense to me as 'judging' and 'perceiving', and I find it far less confusing than re-using the Jungian terms outfitted with an unrelated meaning. Having used the same terms as Jung to label her innovation, she proceeded to infer a further connection between her proposed outward orientation and the Jungian functions. A preference for jam over pickles (or vice versa) would be her overriding principle for ordering the interaction of those functions, giving her a mechanism for postulating dominance, direction, and the supposed order in which those now virtually corralled and observable functions interact (all of which seems to have been swallowed lock, stock and barrel).
This organizing structure of dominance, direction and sequence of the mental functions is what allows for the systematic theorizing about personality characteristics related to the various configurations of mental function; this theorizing is then offered in the form of the personality or character portraits for each type.
Though I can't subscribe to the Myers construct, I do find the underlying Jungian concepts (do you tend to look inward or outward, do you tend to process sensorily or intuitively, do you tend to judge objectively or subjectively) to be valid and significant.
Apologies
Re: Apologies
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
Re: Apologies
As an addendum, here is the profile that best fits me:
Quiet and reserved individuals. Organized and methodical in their approach. They place great importance on honesty and integrity. They hold a tremendous store of facts within themselves. They need to watch out for the tendency to become overly detail-oriented. Since they put a lot of weight in their own beliefs, it's important that they remember to value other people's input and opinions. Self-confidence is sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive. Their expressions can be taken at face-value.
Tend to have their own strong belief in what's right and what's wrong, and will doggedly stick to their principles. The Rules of the Establishment may hold little value, but their own integrity mandates that they will not under any circumstances do something which they feel to be wrong. A spontaneous, optimistic individual. They are keenly in tune with the way things look, taste, sound, feel and smell. Do not readily grasp the social rituals; have little patience and less understanding of such things as small talk and flirtation. Extremely private people. Want others to make sense.
They seek clarity in everything. Very shy when it comes to meeting new people. It is extremely important that ideas and facts are expressed correctly and succinctly. They are likely to express themselves in what they believe to be absolute truths. Sometimes, their well thought-out understanding of an idea is not easily understandable by others. Very independent, unconventional, and original. They are not likely to place much value on traditional goals such as popularity. Place great importance on having things orderly and systematic in their outer world.
Quiet and reserved individuals. Organized and methodical in their approach. They place great importance on honesty and integrity. They hold a tremendous store of facts within themselves. They need to watch out for the tendency to become overly detail-oriented. Since they put a lot of weight in their own beliefs, it's important that they remember to value other people's input and opinions. Self-confidence is sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive. Their expressions can be taken at face-value.
Tend to have their own strong belief in what's right and what's wrong, and will doggedly stick to their principles. The Rules of the Establishment may hold little value, but their own integrity mandates that they will not under any circumstances do something which they feel to be wrong. A spontaneous, optimistic individual. They are keenly in tune with the way things look, taste, sound, feel and smell. Do not readily grasp the social rituals; have little patience and less understanding of such things as small talk and flirtation. Extremely private people. Want others to make sense.
They seek clarity in everything. Very shy when it comes to meeting new people. It is extremely important that ideas and facts are expressed correctly and succinctly. They are likely to express themselves in what they believe to be absolute truths. Sometimes, their well thought-out understanding of an idea is not easily understandable by others. Very independent, unconventional, and original. They are not likely to place much value on traditional goals such as popularity. Place great importance on having things orderly and systematic in their outer world.
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
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narya
- chocolate bearer
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Re: Apologies
Cerin,
As you stated earlier:
Feel recharged more by solitude than by interaction (I vs E):
* Quiet and reserved individuals.
* Do not readily grasp the social rituals; have little patience and less understanding of such things as small talk and flirtation.
* Extremely private people.
* Very shy when it comes to meeting new people.
* They are not likely to place much value on traditional goals such as popularity.
Make mental connections more by logic and observation than by hunch (S vs N):
This part is definitely sensing:
* They hold a tremendous store of facts within themselves.
* They need to watch out for the tendency to become overly detail-oriented.
* Their expressions can be taken at face-value.
* They are keenly in tune with the way things look, taste, sound, feel and smell.
* They seek clarity in everything.
* Want others to make sense.
* It is extremely important that ideas and facts are expressed correctly and succinctly.
* Place great importance on having things orderly and systematic in their outer world.
Maybe S:
* Organized and methodical in their approach.
* Sometimes, their well thought-out understanding of an idea is not easily understandable by others.
Make moral decisions more by the head/truth/law than the heart/charity (T vs F):
* They place great importance on honesty and integrity.
* Tend to have their own strong belief in what's right and what's wrong, and will doggedly stick to their principles.
* The Rules of the Establishment may hold little value, but their own integrity mandates that they will not under any circumstances do something which they feel to be wrong.
* They are likely to express themselves in what they believe to be absolute truths.
Prefer to go forward with decisions made rather than open ended (J vs P):
* Since they put a lot of weight in their own beliefs, it's important that they remember to value other people's input and opinions.
* Self-confidence is sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive.
Not sure where this goes:
* A spontaneous, optimistic individual.
* Very independent, unconventional, and original.
I don't really understand the N. It appears to me that someone who is highly intelligent and so comfortable with logic that she can take dramatic leaps of logic is considered an N rather than an S, yet it a person with no logic skills who flies by the seat of her pants can also be an N.
Is the character Sherlock Holmes, the extreme observer and the extreme deducer, an N or an S? or both?
As you stated earlier:
The profile you posted above sounds more like a description of an ISTJ to me, based on my limited understanding of MB. Here are the traits rearranged:Without reading anything, but just choosing based on the meanings of the letters, I picked INTJ, and that fit quite well in several respects. When I took the test, I ended up as ISFJ, and that didn't fit at all. I then read the blurbs describing the types, and the only other one that seemed to fit was INFP, but not as well as INTJ.
Feel recharged more by solitude than by interaction (I vs E):
* Quiet and reserved individuals.
* Do not readily grasp the social rituals; have little patience and less understanding of such things as small talk and flirtation.
* Extremely private people.
* Very shy when it comes to meeting new people.
* They are not likely to place much value on traditional goals such as popularity.
Make mental connections more by logic and observation than by hunch (S vs N):
This part is definitely sensing:
* They hold a tremendous store of facts within themselves.
* They need to watch out for the tendency to become overly detail-oriented.
* Their expressions can be taken at face-value.
* They are keenly in tune with the way things look, taste, sound, feel and smell.
* They seek clarity in everything.
* Want others to make sense.
* It is extremely important that ideas and facts are expressed correctly and succinctly.
* Place great importance on having things orderly and systematic in their outer world.
Maybe S:
* Organized and methodical in their approach.
* Sometimes, their well thought-out understanding of an idea is not easily understandable by others.
Make moral decisions more by the head/truth/law than the heart/charity (T vs F):
* They place great importance on honesty and integrity.
* Tend to have their own strong belief in what's right and what's wrong, and will doggedly stick to their principles.
* The Rules of the Establishment may hold little value, but their own integrity mandates that they will not under any circumstances do something which they feel to be wrong.
* They are likely to express themselves in what they believe to be absolute truths.
Prefer to go forward with decisions made rather than open ended (J vs P):
* Since they put a lot of weight in their own beliefs, it's important that they remember to value other people's input and opinions.
* Self-confidence is sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive.
Not sure where this goes:
* A spontaneous, optimistic individual.
* Very independent, unconventional, and original.
I don't really understand the N. It appears to me that someone who is highly intelligent and so comfortable with logic that she can take dramatic leaps of logic is considered an N rather than an S, yet it a person with no logic skills who flies by the seat of her pants can also be an N.
Is the character Sherlock Holmes, the extreme observer and the extreme deducer, an N or an S? or both?In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer. ~ Albert Camus
Re: Apologies
narya, that was so nice of you to organize my info. 
I scanned all the profiles and copied any phrases that rang true. We can call it the custom blend type. At this point, I'm content to accept any label people see fit to apply. In my own words, I would identify as impetuous, exacting, contemplative and impractical.
As for Sherlock . . . ? I'm leaning toward S, because his brilliant conclusions were based on acute perceptions and a vast repository of facts.
I scanned all the profiles and copied any phrases that rang true. We can call it the custom blend type.
At this point, I'm content to accept any label people see fit to apply. In my own words, I would identify as impetuous, exacting, contemplative and impractical.As for Sherlock . . . ? I'm leaning toward S, because his brilliant conclusions were based on acute perceptions and a vast repository of facts.
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
Re: Apologies
I think Sherlock is an N. 
He makes intuitive leaps, solving problems by leaping from idea to idea. Yes, he does it based on observation, but he's able to look beyond the facts themselves to their meanings and patterns. I think this is more characteristic of an N than an S.
He makes intuitive leaps, solving problems by leaping from idea to idea. Yes, he does it based on observation, but he's able to look beyond the facts themselves to their meanings and patterns. I think this is more characteristic of an N than an S.
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Passdagas the Brown
- Posts: 3154
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Re: Apologies
Holmes is undoubtedly an N. His strength lies not in being a walking encyclopedia, but in detecting patterns and making imaginative leaps (Einstein was also an N - probably a critical part of his ability to make the abstract leap that led to the theory of relativity).
Re: Apologies
Makes sense to me. Leaps of intuition don't happen because you make **** up. They happen because you were paying attention and saw something.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
Re: Apologies
Cerin wrote:The apology has been launched.
I couldn't have done it without the insights this conversation provided! Thanks one and all.
How did all that go, Cerin? I hope it was received with as much care and consideration as it was offered!
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Re: Apologies
My sister sent a brief thank-you. I think it will take some time to assess the effect on our relationship, as we were never in the habit of maintaining a regular correspondence. (The whole family tends to rely on our mother's communications to stay informed about sibling activities.)
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
Re: Apologies
Well, it seems like it was received with some grace. 
Families can be fairly challenging!
Families can be fairly challenging!"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Re: Apologies
My favorite fictional apology is from Babylon 5 :
I found the MBTI personality types to be very valuable in understanding what motivated my family members. My younger daughter in particular was extremely hard to understand until I learned she was at heart an ESFP ... what I call a natural born cheerleader.
After becoming an adult, though, she's shifting more towards ESFJ, which is interesting. All the rest of my immediate family are introverts, so she had a difficult time growing up. I can't count the number of times older, introverted siblings chased after her screaming "LEAVE ME ALONE!" Her hunger for personal interaction exceeded what all four of the rest of us could comfortably give her.
OK, he didn't actually make that "apology", he was practicing. And then something blew up so he didn't have to.Captain Sheridan wrote:"I apologize. I'm .. sorry. I'm sorry we had to defend ourselves against an unwarranted attack. I'm sorry that your crew was stupid enough to fire on a station filled with a quarter million civilians, including your own people. And I'm sorry I waited as long as I did before I blew them all straight to [censored]. .. As with everything else, it's the thought that counts."
I found the MBTI personality types to be very valuable in understanding what motivated my family members. My younger daughter in particular was extremely hard to understand until I learned she was at heart an ESFP ... what I call a natural born cheerleader.
After becoming an adult, though, she's shifting more towards ESFJ, which is interesting. All the rest of my immediate family are introverts, so she had a difficult time growing up. I can't count the number of times older, introverted siblings chased after her screaming "LEAVE ME ALONE!" Her hunger for personal interaction exceeded what all four of the rest of us could comfortably give her.