The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies fan reviews... SPOILERS

[yovargas]

B. You do not, so far as I know, have any experience making large-scale films.

Neither did PJ at one point in his life.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

But he spent most of his life from a young age working towards becoming a filmmaker.

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[yovargas]

John Stewart didn't and he just recently directed his first film.

You can hire people who know all the technical stuff as long as you've got the money and the vision. I see no reason to doubt PtB wouldn't have the latter and if I was a billionaire I might give him the former.

[Passdagas the Brown]

I have loved film with a passion since a very early age, and took a number of film-making courses for four years in my undergraduate days (I was actually a film major until I switched to international relations, my other passion...) Though that, of course, does not mean I have anything close to the knowledge of the ins and out of the craft and industry as PJ has.

But yov's right. If you feel confident in your creative abilities, you can certainly hire all the people who know how to do things that you can't do! There have been plenty of filmmakers who got started very suddenly, including Tarantino, etc - many of whom had simply spent years and years planning out movies in their heads (and I certainly have...)

I am therefore requesting a billion dollars from the good and generous people of the Hall of Fire to begin a remake of the Lord of the Rings films. Just send me a PM if you're interested.

[Passdagas the Brown]

B. You do not, so far as I know, have any experience making large-scale films.

Neither did PJ at one point in his life.

Yeah, like, when he signed on to direct The Fellowship of the Ring.

I have to say, V-man, that you have a surprisingly limited perspective on what it takes to participate in the creative process. Film-making is not like being a lawyer, an accountant, or a general. If you have a strong vision, and the intelligence and commitment to see it through (including by not being afraid of fundraising), you can probably cut it, provided that someone eventually gives you lots of money, and you're smart enough to delegate when you don't know what you're doing!

Peter Jackson's example is actually a rather inspirational one, in this regard. There are young filmmakers all over the world that have decided to try their hand at being filmmakers because of him.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

There are, of course, far fewer successful filmmakers than there are lawyers, accountants or generals. The very fact that you have not in fact made successful films of LOTR proves that you don't have the same drive to do so that allowed Peter Jackson to do so. After all, I don't think that I would get any argument to the statement that you love LOTR far more than he does. If you really "had what it takes" to make these films, you would have done so before Jackson did (or you would be out convincing a studio to make you make the new definitive versions, not asking the dozen or people who post here for money that we don't have). And that is no insult, either. I don't doubt that you love film as well as loving Tolkien's work, but not so that it is your life's work, like it is Jackson's. There is much that you have succeeded at doing that he never would have been able to do (nor I, for that matter).

[Túrin Turambar]

Basically, my objection is purely artistic. I find Weathertop false-looking and inauthentic, with especially bad lighting. It's the worst lit scene of the whole trilogy, and that sort of thing really does effect my enjoyment. It really feels to me like a scene from a Bruce Campbell film, minus the humor, has fallen from the sky and landed in the film.

The lighting criticism is an interesting one, because I think that a number of dark scenes throughout all the films are over-lit. For example, when the Fellowship first enter Moria, I really like the brief scene where it is totally dark until Gandalf lights up his staff, after which the light only illuminates his face. I wish that they had kept it close like that until “now I will risk a little real light” rather than shown broad and sweeping sets illuminated in blue.

I wonder, though, whether that (and Weathertop, and Shelob’s Lair, and the assault on Minas Tirith) was an artistic or purely technical choice. In other words, if the additional light was necessary to film the scenes.

[Smaug's voice]

I find Weathertop false-looking and inauthentic, with especially bad lighting. It's the worst lit scene of the whole trilogy, and that sort of thing really does effect my enjoyment.

I'm not really seeing that much of a difference between the two in terms of lighting tbh. Both are very brightly lit.

[Passdagas the Brown]

SV,

Stills don't capture it. You have to show the full clip. It's overlit, and there's this strange, strobe-light effect going on. Particularly during shots from above. Lesnie's stadium lights, I imagine, before PJ and company figured out how to mute them.

Also, the lighting in Dol Guldur is much better than that in Weathertop (even though in general, like LordM, I really dislike PJ's preference for over-lighting scenes). In Weathertop, if you look at that garishly bright light on the columns (and the hobbits) you'll note that it seems to be coming from multiple directions. Where's the light coming from? A bunch of little neon moons all over the place? And that's some seriously bright moonlight! That is not what a hill in the middle of the wilderness in the middle of the night should look like...The light in Dol Guldur, even though it's not natural, is much more subdued and softened, and at least seems to have a single source from above (as well as a source in Galadriel, who is luminous herself). The use of shadows are such a great tool for filmmakers, and I find it hard to understand why PJ prefers to eliminate them.

But it's far more than just the lighting. It's the staging and the action as well. And the set.

In any event, this isn't a debate, so I have nothing much more to say. I think it looks awful, and that's about all there is to it!

V-man,

That's a rather silly post. The historical record (the fact that I have not written, directed and produced a series of LOTR films) has very little to do with the future potential of me doing so, which is what we were discussing.

You never know. I may just give it a try.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Dp

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Best of luck, Passdagas.

[Necromancer Rising]

2)The Shores of the Long Lake with an exceptional variation of Feast of Starlight theme plus the great new theme that is heard when the Laketowners accept Bard as a leader

If I may hijack your post a little, that isn't strictly a new theme. It can be called something like "Girion's heirs" or "The Lords of Dale," and plays a couple times during DoS; most notably during the Girion flashback. And a quick fragment of it can actually be heard even earlier in B5A when Bain makes the decision to leave the boat to assist his father (a nice musical touch, I thought, even if hardly anyone will be aware of the significance). The moment you refer to is certainly its fullest realization, though. But it sounds much better on the soundtrack. The actual film cut it and its lead-in short for whatever reason.

Thanks for than info Dave. I had not noticed it until you mentioned it and heard the soundtracks again

[Passdagas the Brown]

Best of luck, Passdagas.

Yes, luck. The other ingredient required for success.

[Passdagas the Brown]

V-man,

There are, of course, far fewer successful filmmakers than there are lawyers, accountants or generals.

You missed my point. The point is, that though film and art school are very useful for the development of a good filmmaker, they are not critical or necessary, as is law school, an accounting degree, and a long career in military service (and a military education) for becoming a legitimate member of those professions. In the world of the arts, a strong and passionate mind for the art, and a personal portfolio, are the keys to success. One's formal education is sometimes a bonus, but it almost never matters in comparison to one's demonstrated artistic ability.

It so happens that I have made 3 short films (two still on VHS...), and have a portfolio of creative writing (including a script for a short film). Have I yet used them to further my interest in directing a Lord of the Rings reboot? No.

Not yet.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

One of my favorite little touches in the movie, that I have not seen anyone else mention any place, is when Thranduil pours a drink for Bard, but not for Gandalf, when he is talking about a a storm sometimes just being a storm. Such a nice little touch.

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[Passdagas the Brown]

Did you appreciate Pace in BOFA more so than in DOS? I know you didn't much care for his performance in the latter.

Personally, I think he's great.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, I thought Thranduil was great in BotFA.

Even in DoS it wasn't so much Pace's performance that I had any problem with as some of Jackson's directorial choices regarding the character, particularly when we first see him in the film, which I thought was more appropriate for the introduction of a burlesque glam star than a lord of the first born. And I dislike the scar; typical Jacksonian OTT-ness. But I like everything about him in BotFA; he is even able to elevate some of the bad dialogue he is given (and to give credit where credit is due, I thought his scornful words to and about Gandalf were really well written as well as really well delivered). As I have said on several occasions, he reminds me very much of Turgon, who I have always been fascinated by. There are numerous similarities:

1. He is emotionally scarred from losing his spouse long ago, which affects his relationship with his only child.
2. He is an isolationist to a fault, concerned only with his own people and generally unwilling to get involved in the affairs of the wider world.
3. He suddenly and surprisingly breaks out of his isolationist stance (with Turgon surprisingly appearing at the Nírnaeth, and Thranduil having his Elves attack the Orcs first after it seems like they won't get involved).
4. He returns to his isolationist ways after seeing the devastating effect of getting involved in the battles (Turgon returning to Gondolin and never allowing any of people out again after the Nírnaeth, and Thranduil refusing to come to Thorin's aid at Ravenhill and instead withdrawing his troops after seeing the devastation they have suffered).
5. He has a dispute with a strong woman close to him who desires to break out of the isolation and experience more of the wider world (I have long thought that Tauriel seemed partly based on Aredhel, which I wrote about last year after DoS came out).
6. He explicitly refuses to follow the advise of an emissary of the Valar (in Turgon's case Tuor, who is an emissary of Ulmo, in Thranduil's case Gandalf who is an emissary of all the Valar, but particularly Manwë and Varda).


Beyond these points, his arrogant majesty, with a hint of compassion despite his scorn for others, reminds me more of Turgon than any other Tolkien character. Mike Drout wrote in his review of BotFA that he felt that Thranduil was was based more on the sons of Fëanor, particularly Curfin or Celegorm, than Thingol, but I think Turgon is a better example. Curufin and Celegorm are largely unredeemable jerks, despite their beauty and majesty and power. Thranduil can be jerky, but I don't think he is unredeemable. I think he is emotionally scarred and very flawed, but still basically good. Just like Turgon.

[Dave_LF]

On the subject of Thranduil's scar, I'd forgotten about this until now, but did anyone else notice that as the battle wears on, silver lines start to appear on his cheek where it was located?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I did not notice that. Maybe I need to go again, so I can look for that. That is kinda cool, actually. So much more subtle than the original scar reveal.

[Smaug's voice]

Yes I saw that.
I think it's in one of the shots from the trailer too.