Episode 8 (Spoilers)

[Stranger Wings]

Cinematography is gorgeous in that clip. Pre-apocalyptic. The lighting is too beautiful for it to not precede something bad happening!

[Stranger Wings]

I can't for the life of me figure out why they decided to make Gil-Gilad so unlikeable!

I imagine he'll have an arc across the seasons. From unlikable to likable to...Grill-galad.

[Dave_LF]

Is there an actual canon explanation for the fading of the elves pre-Frodo?

[dormouse]

The creepy ladies can apparate - could this be a Wizarding World take-over?

Gil-galad is my real regret with RoP so far. I keep finding myself singing 'Gil-galad was an elven king' from the BBC radio adaptation of LotR, and wishing RoP would remember he's one of the goodies (as opposed to the Goodies).

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The really strange thing is that one of my favorite moments in the build-up to the show was when Benjamin Walker recited a big hunk of "Gil-Galad was an elven king" from memory at comic-con. I thought then that this was one character that they were bound to get right. I think that SW is probably right that at the end of his arc he will be the Gil-Galad we know and love*, but dammit not every character needs to have an arc.

*Grill-Galad was very clever!

The other thing that I just can't get past is the whole tree of life thing. Come on, guys, you can do better than that!

[Eldy]

Asshole!Gil-galad is one of my least favorite parts of the Lindon subplot.

That clip is ... yeah. If only Celebrimbor et al had but a little more time to brainstorm circular shapes, maybe we could've gotten The Septum Piercings of Power.

[Inanna]

Oh you guys. Lol.

[Smaug's voice]

Sad that the long wait now begins.


Spoiler thoughts:


They really sped through the making of the Rings and I'm not sure how we're going to get to the other 16 Rings that are yet to be made. There's even a good possibility now that we're not even going to get Annatar.


That said, I really loved the Sauron reveal. As someone who was not really onboard the idea initially, I'm strangely accepting of it and even like the idea. It's mostly down to Charlie Vickers being charismatic and very deceiving in looks. Interesting that they went with the idea of Sauron being genuinely repentant after Morgoth's fall which I know the text never makes it clear. I don't know how I feel about Sauron asking Galadriel to rule alongside him, although the imagery of Galadriel and Sauron reflected in the waters, standing side by side, really made me gasp. (Also shoutout to the actor who plays Finrod who gave a genuinely creepy performance as Sauron guised as Finrod)


What I hated was the incessant callbacks to LotR and the movies in this. At one point I was almost expecting Poppy to join Nori and set off on their own Sam and Frodo adventures. Also it looked like the Harfoots barely cared that Sadoc died which is a shame because Sir Lenny Henry's character was so darn good and loveable.


Re: the Stranger - just when I thought he was very transparently Olórin, they dropped the fact that they're travelling East to Rhûn. So all the Gandalf nods could be a misdirect ("follow your nose", "go back to the shadow", the cultists disintegrating in the form of moths) and he might be a Blue Wizard. But I'm leaning more towards the earlier.

[Eldy]

I said numerous times before ROP aired—hell, even before we knew it would be called ROP—that I thought the show could be good on its own merits, regardless of how much it changed from the books. Despite, or rather because of, my lingering purist tendencies, I tried to go out of my way to focus on things I enjoyed, to avoid solely being a grumpy purist about the show. The start of the mithril subplot in Episode 5 killed my motivation to be charitable and for the past few weeks I've complained about a lot of changes. Going into the season finale, though, I wanted to be more fair-minded again, so I decided to try to emulate some of my friends who said they enjoyed the show more after looking it as an Alternate Universe (AU) version of Middle-earth. Looking back over the season from this perspective makes me less grumpy about some alterations, but it doesn't make me like the show better. If anything, I'm disappointed they didn't change more.

To try to explain, let me quote something I said back in February, in response to numerous descriptions of the show as fanfiction:

As many critics of the project have pointed out, the paucity of Second Age material in the books means the series will effectively be officially licensed fanfiction. I see that as an opportunity! The best fanfiction AUs (Alternate Universes) diverge from their source material in artistically considered, deliberate ways, introducing new ideas while remaining in dialogue with the original. They display an obsession with detail that often eclipses that of fanfiction which hews closer to the original, in many cases because the authors really like some small element that wasn't elaborated on, and they use that as their basis to build new worlds of breathtaking depth and complexity. Some such fanfic authors love the original works, some actively dislike them, but the great ones all care. They're not making changes out of laziness, or pandering to expectations, or because they don't understand the original well enough to realize they're changing things.

I think the showrunners have demonstrated, through both the show and their comments outside it, that they do understand the original work, but I would like ROP better if its changes felt like they were in the service of some coherent artistic purpose. This is frequently the case in fanfiction, even if those purposes are weird, like remodeling human society and sexuality after bad wolf sociology. ROP, on the other hand, is clearly purposeful in wanting to establish a kind of quasi-continuity with the Peter Jackson films, and also to remind audiences of those films by incessantly hitting them over the head with quotes and other callbacks, but this makes the changes that were made far more frustrating. Being afraid to challenge the Jacksonian status quo too much leads ROP to repeatedly retreat from its most interesting ideas, forcing the question of what the point was in deviating from the text as much as they did.

I'm saltiest right now over the Galadriel/Sauron plotline. I actually really liked it through the first seven episodes! I wasn't sold on the Halbrand = Sauron theory at the start, but I nonetheless found Halbrand an engaging and interesting character. Once it became clear that he most likely was Sauron, I liked him even more, because he was clearly repentant. I'm a big fan of repentant!Sauron in the early–mid Second Age, but I honestly didn't think ROP would go in that direction. I'm pleased to have been wrong on that count. I definitely wouldn't have guessed that they'd spend the first season building sexual and romantic tension between Galadriel and Sauron, but I really enjoyed watching their bond grow. And then, once Galadriel begins to suspect the truth ... nothing. It's all over in less than an episode. Galadriel immediately mistrusted and hated Halbrand, and tried to kill him once he confessed. It would have gone down essentially the same if she had learned his identity on the raft, or right after arriving in Númenor.

I like to think this is not solely about me being too much of a shipper for my own good. People have talked for months about how characters must have arcs, and Galadriel has a long path to tread before she reaches the mental and emotional state she inhabited in Fellowship, when she narrowly rejected the temptation of the Ring. They were right. Yet here we are, only a fifth of the way through ROP, and Galadriel—who is still emotionally broken and borderline incompetent—just faced that same temptation, with some of the exact same wording, and rejected it easier than she did in Fellowship. (And this despite the deal being sweetened with the prospect of some sweet Sauron loving! ) So ... she did it? Congratulations. But I have to wonder what was the point of the previous seven episodes worth of this subplot, if those experiences didn't make Galadriel behave any differently when finally confronted with her arch-nemesis. Let me make a radical proposition: ROP would be better, and far more interesting, if Galadriel had said yes. Obviously, this would be a huge deviation from the books, but the show was already charting its own course by building a romantic subplot around Galadriel and Sauron in the first place. So go crazy with it! Have Galadriel truly struggle with temptation, and not come out on top of that struggle yet, since we're still early in the story. Let Sauron's repentance last a little longer. I'm not saying I think the show should have ended with Galadriel and Sauron as an immortal power couple ruling Middle-earth for—well, actually, that would be pretty much right up my alley, but I would've been fine with the power couple falling apart within a season or two and ending up on opposing sides of the war.

The Stranger's subplot is a similar case. I really liked his showdown with the Mystics. I loved him saying "I'm good" at the climactic moment, in an echo of Nori's words to him. And yet, it could have been so much more! The Stranger being Gandalf is fine, but consider if the Balrog fan theory had been correct, except the Stranger chose to be good after being exposed to the Harfoots' positive influence. The Stranger has been questioning his morality and whether it's okay for him to be around friends for most of the season. Now he has an answer, and it's ... yes. He's good. He's not a danger except insofar as he took a while to figure out how to control his powers. "I'm good" was not a choice, but simply a realization. I don't find this engaging as a character arc. On a scene by scene level, I enjoyed just about everything from the Stranger/Harfoot plotline this week—with the notable exception of Sadoc slowly bleeding out while a wizard with previously demonstrated healing powers stands there and doesn't even try to help—but I have to regret what we could have seen if the showrunners were bold enough to really go all in on making the show an AU. Gimme some Balrog redemption! (Also, in my ideal world this would have happened several episodes ago, with far less wheel-spinning as the Harfoots vacillated about whether they like the Stranger or not.)

While watching Episode 8, I grumbled a lot to myself about the treatment of Elvish fading. We got snippets of information about Elvish colonialism throughout the season, and according to Durin in Episode 5, Lindon was still actively sending out warriors to distant lands, possibly at an accelerating pace. This is evidently a civilization that still has a great deal of vitality left in it. Contra both the books and the dictionary definition of the word, ROP's version of fading is not a gradual process of decline, but something that happens abruptly, with a nation going from full flower to the prospect of total destruction in a matter of months. As a book fan, it drives me batty, and I've struggled more to stop being a grumpy purist about this than any other part of S1. I'm not sure there's any way the show could have played it that would be satisfying to me. On the other hand, Elvish expansionism and colonization does not elicit this reaction, even though it's also a substantial change. I would've enjoyed learning more about it! I think this could have improved the Southlands subplot, too. Let us see more about the interactions of Elves and Southlanders, particularly the descendants of the old ruling class, who were likely among the most oppressed by the Elvish guards. That would make the appearance of a claimant to the throne who is backed by an Elf far more interesting.

I could be here all night complaining about the Southlands, which didn't even appear in this episode, but I'll try to keep it short. As far as I can tell, the whole "King of the Southlands" plotline existed mainly to get Galadriel and Halbrand back to Middle-earth with an army. But in practice, it means Galadriel concluded a random stranger she met was a royal heir in exile because he had a necklace with a certain coat of arms on it, despite the line having gone extinct 1000 years ago. This is known to Elves who pay little attention to mortals, so it's presumably better known among actual Southlanders. (They have a folk tradition that the true King will return, but it's possible this is more of a "King asleep in mountain" type deal.) But the Southlanders acclaim Halbrand as King as soon as he shows up, though he reigns for all of, like, 30 minutes before getting critically injured in a volcanic eruption (though not so injured that he couldn't "ride without rest" for hundreds of miles). Then again, the Southlands appears to be only a handful of villages—all but one of which were destroyed by Orcs before Episode 1—whose two main political factions are led by the local innkeeper and the local herbalist. So it's probably not worth thinking about much.

So yeah, this was ROP. It was very pretty. It had great music. Much of the acting was excellent. There were scenes in most episodes, including many in Episode 8, that I really enjoyed, I just don't think they fit together in a particularly coherent way. The showrunners could have tried to be as faithful as possible given the constraints they were working under (which necessitated many changes), or they could have gone hog wild making an alternate version of Middle-earth, but they chose a middle path of making sometimes intriguing and sometimes baffling changes without following through on their full potential. I would have preferred either of the alternatives. I won't claim that taking this approach makes the show objectively bad, but as someone who came into this already passionate about the Second Age, I find it disappointing. Hopefully future seasons will iron out some of the kinks we saw in S1, but I don't expect they will change the fundamental approach. Nor would I expect them to—Amazon was never going to make extremely niche fangirls like me their target audience—but it's not like the show we got was the only possible way it could have been written to be accessible to newcomers. And no, constantly quoting the damn Jackson movies isn't necessary either!

[Eldy]

There's even a good possibility now that we're not even going to get Annatar.

I suspect Halbrand saying "call it a gift" in this episode is as much Annatar as we're gonna get.

[Alatar]

I actually loved this episode.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I cringed at everything with the Harfoots and the "Istar". Otherwise I'm still considering.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Interesting that they went with the idea of Sauron being genuinely repentant after Morgoth's fall which I know the text never makes it clear.

I'm not convinced that Sauron the Deceiver was genuinely repentant, just because he said he was. After all, the really played up his "Deceiver-ness".

In contrast with Eldy, my favorite part of the episode was Galadriel's reaction once she figured out that Halbrand was Sauron the Deceiver. I really didn't think they would be able to sell that to me but they absolutely did.

I'm still not wild about how they came to make the three rings, but I am hopeful that moving forward we are going to leave behind (or mostly leave behind) the whole ridiculous Mithril/Silmaril and Tree of Ever-lasting Elvish life plot lines.

Disappointed that Isildur was completely left hanging, and the idiocy of having his "sister" look at the palantír (but not show what if anything she saw), but still willing to withhold judgment on the Númenor plotline.

Imma gonna pretend that the Harfoots and unnamed-Istar don't exist.

I canceled my brief Prime subscription and I'll consider whether to get another "free trial" whenever the show returns.

[Eldy]

Interesting that they went with the idea of Sauron being genuinely repentant after Morgoth's fall which I know the text never makes it clear.

I'm not convinced that Sauron the Deceiver was genuinely repentant, just because he said he was. After all, the really played up his "Deceiver-ness".

I think Tolkien was pretty clear that Sauron's repentance at the end of the First Age was genuine. While OTROP sticks to the classic it is said type formula when mentioning Sauron's encounter with Eönwë, it goes on to describe Sauron only gradually reacquiring his worst villainous traits. And in other texts, Tolkien seems to take the idea of a repentant Sauron for granted. Of Dwarves and Men tells us that after "Sauron came out of hiding and revealed himself in fair form [he] endeavoured to win the friendship and trust of the Eldar. But slowly he reverted again to the allegiance of Morgoth and began to seek power by force..." (HoMe XII, p. 304; emphasis mine). In Myths Transformed Text VII, Tolkien said Sauron "still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction" (p. 396; emphasis mine). If Sauron was faking his contrition the whole time, there wouldn't have been any relapse.

I canceled my brief Prime subscription and I'll consider whether to get another "free trial" whenever the show returns.

I'm glad you bit the bullet long enough to watch the show as it aired! I've enjoyed reading your thoughts each week, even when I disagree with them.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Eldy, I agree with your assessment of Tolkien's Sauron. But this ain't Tolkien's Sauron!

[Eldy]

Very true.

Honestly, I hope that Sauron was being more or less honest. And I'm still not done being salty about him and Galadriel never even kissing! All that sexual tension building up for an entire season of television, and no payoff.

[Eldy]

It has been brought to my attention on another forum that The Simpsons spoiled ROP by broadcasting the Galadriel and Halbrand reveal conversation 25 years ago (skip to timestamp 2:02).

[dormouse]

I'm still thinking.... I found it really compelling while it was happening. Gil-galad seemed a little bit more like himself, so I have hope on that score - and I think they might forget about the tree now, because it's served its purpose. I didn't believe that Halbrand was Sauron until he turned up in Celebrimbor's forge, then I could see it coming, and I think he really sold it on his acting - he did, and so did whoever plays Finrod, by suddenly turning into unnerving and sinister Finrod. And Galadriel. I was pleased (and relieved) to see the the doubt in her eyes as she realised what was happening.
Before this episode started I didn't believe either Halbrand or the Stranger was Sauron. When the Mystics cornered the Stranger I found I really didn't want him to be Sauron, so I was glad to be wrong about Halbrand.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I was the biggest "Halbrand as Sauron" detractor around, and yet when push came to shove I found it quite compelling, and was even willing to suspend disbelief about the ridiculousness of no one realizing that he couldn't possibly be the king of the Southlands since that line had been broken over a thousand years before (is that confirmation that the Second Age was over 1000 years long?).

[Eldy]

The very notion of a King of the Southlands never made a lot of sense. The ancestors of the Southlanders fought with Morgoth against the Eldar, meaning they presumably lived in and near Beleriand. My understanding is that they were forcibly relocated to not!Mordor where they could be monitored at a secure distance from the major Elvish realms. But that means the last King, the one who swore himself to Morgoth and was implied to have died in the War of Wrath, should have already been gone by the time his people ended up in the Southlands. And it clearly wasn't a secret that he had no heir, which makes it all the more baffling that Galadriel saw Halbrand wearing a necklace and immediately started talking him up as the lost heir to "the throne of the Southlands," which as far as I can tell is not a thing that ever existed.