2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

[RoseMorninStar]

No, I'm not on Tapatalk. But I do have a lot of security on my desktop and Firefox has a lot of security of it's own.
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Yup.. it's Firefox security. I just opened this page on Chrome on my phone and the Twitter links/previews show up.

[N.E. Brigand]

A jury today returned a mixed verdict in the case of Jan. 6th insurrectionist Riley Williams of Pennsylvania. Williams, a self-described "Groyper" (white nationalists who follow Nick Fuentes), was convicted of six counts, most seriously of "impeding officers who tried to clear the Capitol Rotunda," but the jury hung on two other charges: "whether Williams 'aided and abetted' in the theft of a laptop from Pelosi’s office . . . and obstruction of Congress' Jan. 6 proceeding." Williams's attorney (a public defender) apparently was successful in convincing some jurors that while Williams did break the law by being in the Capitol, she was too stupid to realize the gravity of what she was doing. That said, apparently Williams did urge others in Pelosi's office to "take that fucking laptop" and advised one rioter to "put on gloves" when he went to do so.

The article doesn't say and I don't remember: was that stolen laptop ever recovered?

Merditith McGraw of Politico has been told by a source that that Nick Fuentes yesterday was at Mar-a-Lago with Kanye West. (Edited to add: and here is video of Fuentes and West together at the Miami airport. It's undisputed that West went to Mar-a-Lago, but McGraw's is the only report that Fuentes was tthere.)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That's interesting.

[N.E. Brigand]

The Justice Department is seeking testimony from former Vice President Mike Pence.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

N.E.B., are you also not seeing the previews of Twitter posts? Such as this one:

[N.E. Brigand]

N.E.B., are you also not seeing the previews of Twitter posts? Such as this one:

[twitter post on DOJ seeking Pence testimony]

I do see your Twitter posts here, including that one (now that you pointed it out to me). What happened in this case was that while I scrolled back to see if anyone had already mentioned this, I didn't look back far enough (page break may have thrown me), and thus I missed your post and ended up posting the same news as you.

[N.E. Brigand]

A jury today returned a mixed verdict in the case of Jan. 6th insurrectionist Riley Williams of Pennsylvania. Williams, a self-described "Groyper" (white nationalists who follow Nick Fuentes), was convicted of six counts, most seriously of "impeding officers who tried to clear the Capitol Rotunda," but the jury hung on two other charges: "whether Williams 'aided and abetted' in the theft of a laptop from Pelosi’s office . . . and obstruction of Congress' Jan. 6 proceeding." Williams's attorney (a public defender) apparently was successful in convincing some jurors that while Williams did break the law by being in the Capitol, she was too stupid to realize the gravity of what she was doing. That said, apparently Williams did urge others in Pelosi's office to "take that fucking laptop" and advised one rioter to "put on gloves" when he went to do so.

The article doesn't say and I don't remember: was that stolen laptop ever recovered?

Merditith McGraw of Politico has been told by a source that that Nick Fuentes yesterday was at Mar-a-Lago with Kanye West. (Edited to add: and here is video of Fuentes and West together at the Miami airport. It's undisputed that West went to Mar-a-Lago, but McGraw's is the only report that Fuentes was tthere.)

McGraw subsequently noted some reporting in the Daily Beast indicating that West did indeed bring Fuentes to Mar-a-Lago, but that Trump hadn't realized Fuentes would be coming, and Fuentes didn't join Trump and West for dinner.

Edited to add: However, West subsequently posted a video in which he says that Trump was impressed by Fuentes but also that Trump screamed at West and rudely insulted West's ex-wife.

Edited further to also add: Axios says that Fuentes did in fact join Trump and West for dinner. And just as I was typing this, I see that Trump has put out a statement saying that the dinner was supposed to be just himself and West, who unexpectedly sprung upon him "a guest whom I had never met and knew nothing about."

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I was just coming to post this, but I see that you covered it.

[RoseMorninStar]

I can see that twitter post. Weird.

It's all weird. Talk about sinking low and hanging out with the lowest of the low.

[Túrin Turambar]

Speaking of Nick Fuentes, here he is promising to give the most "racist, sexist, anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying speech in Dallas" this weekend.

"Anti-Semitic" and "Holocaust denying" got the loudest cheers. The level of anti-Semitism in the current discourse really is an absolute disgrace.

[Sunsilver]

I just checked Wikipedia to see who this man is. He should be in jail!

On his show in April 2017, Fuentes asserted that Muslim speech was not covered by the First Amendment and went on to say, "Who runs the media? Globalists. Time to kill the globalists" and "I want people that run CNN to be arrested and deported or hanged because this is deliberate."

At a pro-Trump protest in Washington, D.C., in December 2020, Fuentes led a crowd to chant "Destroy the GOP", and encouraged them to sit-out the United States Senate special runoff election in Georgia.

Fuentes hosted his third annual AFPAC event in February 2022. During his speech at the event, Fuentes bestowed "giggling praise"[58] on Adolf Hitler, saying that the media had been comparing Vladimir Putin to Hitler "as if that wasn't a good thing".[58][59] Fuentes also asked the audience "Can we get a round of applause for Russia?", which was followed by roaring applause and chants of "Putin! Putin!

On January 4, 2021, two days before the storming of the U.S. Capitol, Fuentes discussed killing state legislators who were unwilling to overturn the results of the 2020 election, saying "What can you and I do to a state legislator—besides kill them? We should not do that. I'm not advising that, but I mean, what else can you do, right?"[71][65][72][63]

On January 6, 2021, prior to the attack, Fuentes spoke to a crowd of supporters at Freedom Plaza, stating, "It is us and our ancestors that created everything good that you see in this country. All these people that have taken over our country—we do not need them. ... It is the American people, and our leader, Donald Trump, against everybody else in this country and this world... Our Founding Fathers would get in the streets, and they would take this country back by force if necessary. And that is what we must be prepared to do."[73]

In March 2022, Fuentes stated that he is a reactionary who supports autocracy and called himself "a 12th century man", adding "Catholic autocracy? Pretty strong. Pretty strong record. Catholic monarchy? Catholic monarchy, and just war, and crusades, and inquisitions? Pretty good stuff." Fuentes also decried democracy, saying "You know what democracy has given us? Obesity. Low rates of literacy. It's given us divorce, abortion, gay marriage, liberalism, pornography. That's what democracy has given us. Ghettos and crime and political correctness. Diversity. Yeah, the track record of democracy? Not so good."[85]

This proves once again that Trump will climb into bed with anyone he thinks will gain him some votes in the next election.

[N.E. Brigand]

Thanks to Randy Rainbow, I can longer hear the word "sedition" without humming "Tradition" from Fiddler on the Roof.

[N.E. Brigand]

And what put that word in my head is the verdicts just announced in the Oath Keeper conspiracy trial. There were five defendants. Per Brandi Buchman of Daily Kos:

Elmer Stewart Rhodes jury verdict by count:
GUILTY: seditious conspiracy
NOT GUILTY: conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding
GUILTY: obstruction of an official proceeding
NOT GUILTY: conspiracy to prevent an officer from discharging
GUILTY: Tampering with docs

Kelly Meggs jury verdicts
GUILTY: seditious conspiracy
GUILTY: Conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding
GUILTY: Obstruction of an official proceeding
GUILTY: Conspiracy to prevent officer from discharging duties
NOT GUILTY: Destruction govt property
GUILTY: Tampering w/docs

Kenneth Harrelson jury verdicts:
NOT GUILTY: seditious conspiracy
NOT GUILTY: Conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding
GUILTY: Obstruction of official proceeding
GUILTY: Conspiracy to prevent ofcr from doing duties
NOT GUILTY: Destruction of prop
GUILTY: Tampering w/docs

Jessica Watkins jury verdicts:
NOT GUILTY: Seditious conspiracy
GUILTY: Conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding
GUILTY: Obstruction of official proceeding
GUILTY: Conspiracy to prevent officer from doing duties
NOT GUILTY: Destruction govt property
GUILTY: Civil disorder

Thomas Caldwell jury verdicts per count:
NOT GUILTY: Seditious conspiracy
NOT GUILTY: Conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding
GUILTY: Obstruction of an official proceeding
NOT GUILTY: Conspiracy to prevent an officer from discharging duties
GUILTY: Tampering with docs

Rhodes and Caldwell didn't enter the Capitol. The other three did.

There are two more trials upcoming in December in which defendants have been charged with seditious conspiracy: one for four more Oath Keepers and another for member of the Proud Boys.

Jordan Fischer of WUSA-9, the CBS affiliate in D.C., provides a helpful chart:

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Just coming here to post that. The jury really parsed the evidence.

The other big news today is that Mark Meadows has been ordered to testify before the Georgia grand jury.

[N.E. Brigand]

I've just been browsing the website and social media feeds of the Washington Free Beacon, a conservative media outlet. No mention yet of the Oath Keepers verdict, more than an hour after it was announced, but here's the headline of one of their top articles posted this afternoon:

"Grandpa Grinch: Hunter Biden's Love Child Snubbed Again at Christmas"

[Frelga]

A conservative talking head also complained that Biden's granddaughter married a man 3 years younger. This is the same age difference as my in-laws, who lived happily ever after for over 50 years till death did them part. And my BFF, who's 30 years into her marriage.

Do conservative audiences hear this and think, yes, this is bad Americaning?

[N.E. Brigand]

Asha Rangappa notes this August 2021 article from Reuters which reported that:

The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials. Though federal officials have arrested more than 570 alleged participants, the FBI at this point believes the violence was not centrally coordinated by far-right groups or prominent supporters of then-President Donald Trump, according to the sources, who have been either directly involved in or briefed regularly on the wide-ranging investigations. ... [O]ne source said there has been little, if any, recent discussion by senior Justice Department officials of filing charges such as "seditious conspiracy" to accuse defendants of trying to overthrow the government. They have also opted not to bring racketeering charges, often used against organized criminal gangs. Senior officials had discussed filing such charges in the weeks after the attack, the sources said. Prosecutors have also not brought any charges alleging that any individual or group played a central role in organizing or leading the riot. Law-enforcement sources told Reuters no such charges appeared to be pending.

Eleven members of the Oath Keepers were charged in January 2021 with seditious conspiracy. Did the FBI find evidence that the "violence was ... centrally coordinated by far-right groups" only in the five months following the publication of the Reuters article?

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I checked the Twitter feeds of a couple dozen conservative pundits. None mentions this Oath Keepers verdict. (Not even Brit Hume, who said about a year ago that if the Dept. of Justice thought the events of Jan. 6th were really an insurrection, they would have filed serious charges like seditious conspiracy.) But some of them are very mad that the Senate is voting to protect gay marriage.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Regarding Mark Meadows being ordered to testify
at the Georgia grand jury:

“We have reviewed the arguments raised by [Meadows] and find them to be manifestly without merit,” South Carolina’s Supreme Court justices wrote in a brief opinion.

[N.E. Brigand]

I'm trying to imagine what it would have been like if the Secret Service hadn't stopped President Trump from traveling to the Capitol.

If he were right there with the mob trying to storm the building, would there have been a battle between the Capitol Police and the Secret Service?

It would have been interesting, that's for sure!

Maybe once the Secret Service saw in person how bad it was, they would, if necessary, have tackled Trump and handcuffed him to make sure he stayed in the car!

So you're apparently unimpressed with the fact that the people who were actually there said this didn't happen? When will the panel be hearing their testimony?

Of course, that testimony wouldn't matter. This story will now become part of the anti-Trump legendarium, and no amount of truth would be enough to dislodge it.

No one has contested that Trump demanded to be brought to the Capital and that the Secret Service refused and brought him back to the White House instead. The only part that has been contested is that Trump grabbed the steering wheel and assaulted Engel.

Yes, that's the part (the assault) that will become legend -- see Sunsilver's comment above. A man out of control, needing to be handcuffed.

I asked what would have happened if "the Secret Service hadn't stopped President Trump from traveling to the Capitol."

That the Secret Service prevented Trump from going to the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021 appears to be undisputed.

The further details in Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony concerning that action, while colorful, aren't legally relevant. And I said so in my very first post about that subject, before there were any anonymous disputes about its accuracy: I pointed out that Trump's reported movements in the Beast were even less physical than that of the man who recently "attacked" Rudy Giuliani, and that fellow has only been charged with a misdemeanor (and even that charge is widely thought to be excessive). Trump is not reported to have touched anyone, so even if the story is true -- and no one has testified otherwise -- his alleged physical actions in the car are not criminal (but I stand by my statement that such actions would further demonstrate Trump's sociopathy). And again, Hutchinson testified under oath not about what happened in The Beast but about what she says sometime-Secret Service agent and then-Presidential advisor Tony Ornato told her in his office with, she says, Bobby Engel sitting there not disputing Ornato's description. My understanding is that Ornato has not testified.* I am strongly inclined to believe that Hutchinson's testimony is truthful, i.e., she's accurately recounting Ornato's story. Maybe Ornato exaggerated these details when he told the story.

But when I asked my question above, I wasn't thinking of Hutchinson's testimony about Ornato's story at all! I was thinking of this:

Trump's Lawyer Argues President Can't Be Prosecuted for Shooting Someone on Fifth Avenue (Oct. 23, 2019)

By the logic that Trump's attorneys made during that hearing before the Second Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals -- although this specific question wasn't addressed directly in that hearing -- not only could Trump not be prosecuted for killing someone, but law enforcement couldn't even prevent him from killing someone if he chose to do so. (Judge Denny Chin: "Nothing could be done? That's your position?" -- Trump attorney William Consovoy: "That is correct, that is correct.") It's essentially the same argument that Nixon made made years ago: "When the President does it, that means it's not illegal."

So if Trump were leading a mob against the Capitol, as he apparently wanted to do, the Capitol Police, as per Trump's own legal position, wouldn't have been allowed to hold them back, because doing so would impede the President. And if the Capitol Police did determine it was necessary, for example, to use pepper spray against that crowd in order to defend the Capitol -- as they did on January 6th -- would Trump have ordered the Secret Service to start firing on the Capitol Police?

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*Edit: After I posted this, Politico reported that Ornato has in fact testified twice to the Committee, in January and March, but it's not clear whether this incident came up in that questioning. I think it did not, because an unnamed Secret Service spokesman told Politico that "I spoke to Mr. Ornato and we will share our firsthand account with the Committee under oath and on the record." I don't understand why the spokesman isn't named or who "our" refers to, but in any case, the implication is that Ornato hasn't said anything about this alleged incident under oath yet. Maybe he should get a new lawyer like Cassidy Hutchinson did.

Tony Ornato testified yesterday to the January 6th Committee for more than five hours. There was reporting last summer, supposedly from Secret Service sources, that Ornato, if recalled for further testimony (he had already testified twice to the Committee by that point and said nothing at all on this subject), would contradict the testimony of White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson. As you'll recall, Hutchinson testified that Ornato told her on January 6, 2021 that President Trump, in an effort to get the Secret Service to drive him to the Capitol, had lunged for the steering wheel of the car that was taking him back to the White House.

According to the new reporting, Ornato now testified that he does not recall his conversation with Hutchinson.

The new reporting does not say what Ornato testified about the incident in the presidential limousine, and we don't know if what he described to Hutchinson that day was accurate. But obviously she was telling the truth about that conversation, and those leaks last summer were lies meant to protect Donald Trump.

[Voronwë the Faithful]