To what extent did Istari know Middle-earth?

[Halifirien]

Hello! As I am reading Unfinished tales, I found this passage about Istari:

Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar (Sindarin ithron): one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature the World.

So in my earlier post, I asked about Gandalf's knowledge about Bilbo's ring. This passage from Unfinished tales says they had a vast knowledge of the World. So my questions:

1. In what sense does Tolkien mean that?

2. How much did Istari know of Middle-earth? If they had knowledge of the World, they should have known Middle-earth, its people and history.

3. If they knew Middle-earth's history, they could have known much about Rings of Power, no? Therefore, Gandalf could have known much about it -> much earlier conclusion about the Ring. But I suspect that this part of my questions are stupid, since they as Maiar probably didn't visit Middle-earth, and if they did, they couldn't appear anywhere they wanted.

4. What "history and nature" is meant?

As Maiar, they probably didn't know much about Middle-earth, but if they did, Gandalf could have known about Rings of Power much more - which is a stretch, since he obviously knew very little before his further investigation.

Thanks for answers! I found these discussions very useful.

[Jude]

This post doesn't actually address your question, but I have a number of thoughts about the Istari that have been percolating in my mind for a while, so I'll share them here:

The success rate of the Istari was not high. I recall a quote (was it in one of the Letters?) from Tolkien that only one of them remained true to his mission. I'm not sure why Radagast was not included among those who remained true: he befriended and brought comfort to many, and was also of some help to Gandalf.

Among the others, two of them headed east and started a cult, and were of no help in the fight against Sauron. Saruman betrayed his mission and was responsible for thousands of deaths. Saruman seems to have been flawed from the beginning, for "his pride and desire of mastery was great", which made him an easy mark for corruption, and which also begs the question: why the Udûn was he chosen???

There remains Gandalf, who remained true to the mission but was killed before it was completed. And so the success rate might have been zero, except for a special dispensation which allowed Gandalf to return from the dead and complete the mission.

So I have two possible conclusions: either whoever chose these particular five maiar did not do much of a background check - or they just set them a nearly impossible task without providing enough resources. Neither of which speaks well of whoever it was that sent the Istari to Middle-earth.


So, instead of providing you with answers, I provided more questions. Sorry about that!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Nothing in the legendarium is more full of contradictions than the writings about the Istari. The quote you are thinking of, Jude, from the Istari section in Unfinished Tales is this:

Indeed, of all the Istari, one only remained faithful, and he was the last-comer. For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures. Thus he got his name (which is in the tongue of Númenor of old, and signifies, it is said, "tender of beasts"). 4 And Curunír 'Lân, Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he.

Yet, in another text in that section, he writes that "that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him" suggesting that Radagast purpose was to support the beasts and birds.

As for the Blue Wizards, while it is true as Jude says that in one place Tolkien suggests that they went east and formed and cult and were not of any assistance against Sauron, in a text printed in The Peoples of Middle-earth he tells a very different story (and gives them different names):

But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo.(28) Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ...
and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West

But perhaps most extraordinary, there is a reference to the Istari) in The Nature of Middle-earth (edited by Carl Hostetter, aka Aelfwine) that gives them a completely different history. In a bundle of texts labeled by Carl as “Key Dates” that he says was probably written by Tolkien around 1959, we have this remarkable entry:

DB (“Days of Bliss”) 866/13 2175. Oromë remains for 12 years, and then is summoned to return for the councils and war-preparations. Manwë has decided that the Quendi should come to Valinor, but on urgent advice of Varda, they are only to be invited and are to be given free choice. The Valar send five Guardians (great spirits of the Maiar) - with Melian (the only woman, but the chief) these make six. The others were Tarindor (later Saruman), Olórin (Gandalf), Hrávandil (Radagast), Palacendo and Haimenar

If in fact Gandalf and the other Istari were actually sent to Middle-earth shortly after the awakening of the Eldar as Guardians as them make their free choice as to whether accept the invitation of the Valar to come to Valinor, the answer to Halifirien's question would be very different.

[Inanna]

I just want to chime in here and say - thank you for sparking these discussions, Halifrien. I’m reading them with SUCH pleasure

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, it has really been a breath of fresh air!

[scirocco]

Hello! As I am reading Unfinished tales, I found this passage about Istari:

Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar (Sindarin ithron): one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature the World.

So in my earlier post, I asked about Gandalf's knowledge about Bilbo's ring. This passage from Unfinished tales says they had a vast knowledge of the World. So my questions:

1. In what sense does Tolkien mean that?

Tolkien might not have liked this comparison, but I believe you can think of the Istari like a scientist or engineer in their own field of expertise. In the case of the Istari, that field was the supernatural powers that could be used in Middle-earth and how the peoples of M-E would be affected by them.

So they would know:

-The theoretical background of those supernatural powers;
-The discoveries of the theoreticians like Morgoth and Sauron;
-The sorts of artefacts (like Rings, or a wizard’s staff) that could be produced to harness those forces;
-Actual examples of those artefacts produced by the practitioners (mainly the Noldor, both on their own and supervised)
-How those artefacts would typically affect the various peoples of Middle-earth.

And all of that would be in the context of having been in M-E for many thousands of years and knowing the politics, the history and the movers and shakers. (At least in the west of M-E, in the case of Gandalf.)

What they would not necessarily know about is:
-Every instance of every type of artefact that had ever been produced;
-The detailed history of each of these artefacts.

And, just like a scientist, their knowledge might be limited to a particular geographical area. For example, Gandalf might not have known for sure that Sauron had not made other Rings of Power in, say, the East of Middle-earth. It wasn’t his area.

So they knew a lot, but they couldn’t have known every detail. And the devil of course, is in the detail.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

While this quote, from Letter 181 to Michael Straight of the New Republic, is about the Elves, not the Istari, I think it is relevant.

The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men.

The point is that for Tolkien, there is not a firm border between science and art. I think for the Istari -- and particularly Gandalf -- the border between science and magic is even more obscure.