White Council and topics they discussed

[Halifirien]

Hello! So I stumbled upon this topic while reading about Gandalf seeking the truth about Bilbo's ring.

Someone said how could Gandalf forgot about Saruman's words about Great Rings having a gem. Then I started to search what the White Council talked about in their meetings. And I think I ran into some continuity error.

In 2941 they attacked Dol Guldur. In Silmarillion it is said they talked about Rings of Power and that Saruman said The One is lost to the sea. However since the text about Third Age in Silmarillion feels so strange and is probably heavily edited by Christopher, I am not sure how can I take this as a source.

In 2953 they talked again about Rings of Power. In Appendix B, it is said Saruman talked about the One being lost at the sea for the first time.

However in Council of Elrond, Gandalf said Saruman assured them The One is lost repeatedly.

Is is possible there is an error in Appendix B?

Also -- Gandalf said he half-heeded Saruman's word about gems. Which seems strange, since he (probably) knew about Bilbo's ring and was worried about it. Is there some summary about White Council and what exactly they talked about? To create some timeline.

Thanks!

[Jude]

I'm at work so I don't have my books at hand, but I don't see the conflict between the two bolded passages. In the Council of Elrond, could Gandalf be saying that Saruman assured them repeatedly during the same session that The One was lost? There must have been a lot of push-back from the other members, considering the importance of the matter.

Again, I don't have the books handy so maybe my interpretation is incompatible with the actual wording.

[Eldy]

I'm unaware of any Tolkien-authored summary of the White Council's subjects of discussion. Maybe there's one in HoMe VI–VIII, which I'm least familiar with, but I kinda doubt it. Tolkien never fleshed out the full membership of the White Council, nor did he clarify the relationship between the councils of the Second and Third Age, so I wouldn't expect him to go into detail about the content of their meetings. Saruman throwing shade at Gandalf for his pipe-weed habit (UT, The Hunt for the Ring) notwithstanding, of course.

In a (perhaps overly) charitable reading, I don't see a contradiction per se in Saruman's reported statements. We're told that at the final meeting of the White Council in III.2953, "Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea" (LOTR, Appendix B), which sounds like he's saying he found proof of this. (Not sure how he could even pretend to prove something like that; maybe he got by on pure chutzpah.) By contrast, his earlier statement that "long ago, I deem, [the Ring] was rolled to the Sea" (TS, OTROP) sounds more like Saruman offering what he pretends is an educated guess, though it could be interpreted either way (as can Gandalf's paraphrase, "that the One would never again be found in Middle-earth"; FOTR, II 2). So it could be that Saruman repeatedly put forth his theory about the Ring being lost to the Sea, but only at the final meeting, just before he "withdrew to Isengard, and took counsel with none save himself" (OTROP), did he claim to have proof, in the hope of putting Gandalf et al further off-track. But it's certainly possible for it to just be a continuity error.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I also am unaware of any Tolkien-authored summary of the White Council's subjects of discussion (and I'm pretty closely familiar with the content of the History of LOTR volumes of HoMe. Like Jude and Eldy, I don't really see much of a contradiction here, but I'll give it some more thought.

[Halifirien]

To my understanding, Saruman told them about The One being lost to the sea earlier, as said in Silmarillion. So that is why I am asking if there might be an error. But as I said, I am not really sure if I could take the text about TA in TS as a reliable source, since it was written before LOTR and edited by Christopher. If we take this passage out, it could be understood that Saruman told them repeatedly The One is lost, but explained why only on the last meeting.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

"Of the Rings of Power and Third Age" was not written before LOTR. It was written as part of the drafting of the Council of Elrond chapter.

[Halifirien]

Sorry then, my bad. Then I am not sure what to think of it. "Of the Rings of Power and Third Age" obviously mentions meeting in 2851.So that means either this passage of Appendix is wrong. I am just not sure what to take which is right. What do you think then? Thanks for help!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't think they are contradictory, just two different versions of the same tale told on different ways. In Appendix B it says in the entry for 2953 that Saruman "feigns that he discovered" that the One Ring went to the Sea, but it doesn't say that he never previously made that claim. In the entry for 2851 it says that "The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him." While it doesn't say there that Saruman claimed at that time that the Ring had gone to the Sea, that is completely consistent with what is said in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, and in the Council of Elrond, and when all the versions are taken together, there a couple of different ways that it can be looked at. One way is that at the earlier meeting Saruman really did believe that the Ring had gone to the Sea, but that he discovered otherwise (since Sauron's emissaries were searching the area near the Gladden Fields (presumably for the Ring since Isildur was known to have been lost there) and so at the last meeting in 2953 he only "feigned" that he had so discovered. More likely, he was dissembling at both meetings, but either way I still don't think it was inconsistent.

[Halifirien]

I am not really sure, I think Tolkien would have watched for this. In Appendix, it is said then in 2851, Saruman starts to want The One for himself. And then, in 2953, he feigns he discovered that The One is lost at sea, but that is obviously inconsistent, since we are told he talked about it "repeatedly" (at least in 2851).