Join me in a re-read of the Lord of the Rings?

[ArathornJax]

Well, I went from the Black Rider being chased away from Gildor and the High Elves with him. Wonderful reading how the Elves were and Frodo's input to not ask an Elf for advice . . . and Gildor's reply. The time with Farmer Maggott and the mushrooms, and the chase by the black rider at the Brandywine. The bath and mushrooms at Crickhollow and the unfolding of the conspiracy. I loved reading their adventure with Old Man Willow and Tom Bombadil. I like that Tom knows his limits and stays within them. Then the Barrow Downs and the wight. I like the the Hobbits got their swords here. Then on to Bree and the Cow Jumps Over the Moon and Frodo's mistake. The introduction of Strider with his description was wonderful.

Also at The Prancing Pony we see the Hobbits Pippin and then Frodo playing up for the crowd and enjoying it. A side of Hobbits that I think we see from time to time in the books and in the movies.

Then to me, the journey changes after Bree and Strider leaves them into the wildnerness. Here we move from the space of the departing journey to the serious part of the journey. Danger is out there and we don't know where. They see the lighting from Weathertop and Frodo and Aragon discuss it. Later they figure it is Gandalf.Always in the background here is the threat of the Black Riders and I ended this reading with them coming to Weathertop.

[Jude]

I haven't read HoME's details on the writing process, but I would suspect those early chapters are the least revised.

Actually, the transformation of Farmer Maggot from villain to helpful friend is one of the more interesting transformations. I often wonder if Tolkien got so used to the name that he just forgot to change it when he changed the character.

[Alatar]

Yes, thats a perfect example of half revised. Maggot is the only good character with an unpleasant name, because he was revised from an unpleasant character. Like I say, its feels much less thought through than later chapters.

[Dave_LF]

One of the things that's changed for me vs. childhood is when I read a book these days, I'm very much aware of the author--that a book is the result of a person more or less like me going through the familiar process of writing, and not something that was found growing on a tree. In consequence, when Bilbo says he feels like butter spread over too much bread and needs a long, ideally permanent vacation, it's immediately obvious that the sentiment is autobiographical--what overworked, burnt-out middle-aged family man or woman hasn't felt the same? Similarly, his description of Gollum as a bent creature who spends all day digging into roots and beginnings, hiding from the sun and from other people seems like a clear dig at his fellow academics, and philologists in particular. Maybe he feared this is what he was becoming himself?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That's really excellent post, Dave!

[ArathornJax]

Great post Dave! Thank you!
Last night was Weathertop. The description last night of Frodo and his compulsion to put on the ring at the encounter at Weathertop with the Nazgûl. Despite knowing he should not do so, he simply felt he has to put the ring on his finger. Frodo attempts to resist but eventually, "He shut his eyes and struggled for awhile; but resistance became unbearable, and at last he slowly drew out the chain, and slipped the Ring on the forefinger of his left hand."

I think sometimes we get to the point that the pressure to do something we know we shouldn't becomes so great that we yield. In this case there are ramifications, Frodo receives a Morgul wound. Frodo later, like most of us, regrets his "foolishness and reproaches himself for his weakness of will. Frodo realizes that in putting on the ring he obeyed not his own desire but the commanding wish of his enemies. When we give in, when we compromise, we give in to the desires and wishes of others. However, Frodo, I believe resists and strives to move forward because like us, that is all he can do.

I also love how Aragorn realizes though that Frodo is made of sterner stuff than he had guessed, though Gandalf hinted that might prove so. I also think as I reflected on my short read last night that we too are usually made of sterner stuff than we ourselves know. We can endure many, many hard and difficult things and most do. However, one thing I realized that I love about LOTR is that fact that in the midst of all the hardships, troubles and trials, there are those special moments, where the characters get a break from all they are enduring. I think life is like that. We all will face hardships, troubles, trials and yet we must relish those times when we get to be with loved ones and have those still moments where we get a quick break from the bustle of life. We have our Rivendell's, our Lothlórien's, our Ilthiens, etc.

[ArathornJax]

Weathertop to Rivendell
First thing I noticed here was as they traveled, the company spent a night in a shallow pit that looked like it had been quarried once. As Frodo lay half in a dream the text says "imagining that endless dark wings were sweeping by above him, and that on the wings rode pursuers that sought him in all the hollows of the hills."

Interesting that this foreshadows the Nazgûl riding Fell Beasts looking for him. Symbolic also that the Nine were searching everywhere for him.

I really enjoyed as they found the path that led to the troll cave and then the excitement and fright of Merry and Pippin in finding trolls in the broad daylight. Strider knew of course that if there were trolls they would be stone because of the sun light. Strider reminds them not only of their family history with Bilbo but I love how one of the trolls had an old bird's next behind his ear!

We see Sam constructing a song showing that there is more to him also than just being a gardener. The meeting with Glorfindel I enjoyed as I have always loved his character. I have always regretted that no movie adaptation has included him. Frodo's encounter with the nine at the Ford and the raising of the Witch King's hand to silence him and in my mind inviting him to finally yield to the affect of the dagger point in his shoulder. It is evident here that Frodo is almost in the wraith world and he sees Glorfindel's light radiating out as his friends and Strider follow up with torches.

I think I really related to this on a personal level. I am going through a redirection in my life. After 20 plus years, I have left education and am now seeking to do a few other things between now and 65 when I claim my pension. I have a part time job that will cover some basics, my wife is still fully working as an Accountant and we are going to do some training and then in January start preparing taxes to build a tax business.

I noticed now that I have been out for a couple of weeks how tired, and how stressed I really was. I felt like butter spread across toast. I didn't realize the impact my career was having on me at a personal level. We are selling a farm we own in Washington and once it sells, we are financially free and good, but until then we will be tight. Like the Hobbits it has been good as circumstances mean we have to tighten our belts and be frugal. Yet that good old Hobbit attitude that we have each other is what I am realizing more than ever. In some ways I think I have been like Thorin, focused too much on other things that are truly of no worth. Enough though, just glad I am making meaning with the text again.

[ArathornJax]

Man, my post didn't take! So the first post was on the council. Some impressions.

Boromir. Faramir had the dream to seek the sword that was broken and Isildur's bane. Boromir took it upon himself to do it. Echo of some pride there which leads to his fall? Also, Boromir shows that often though we recognize the contribution we make, in this sense the defense of Gondor to the protection of the west, little does he know of other efforts like his northern kin the Dunedan who are defending the settlements of the north from evil as well.

I always love reading Gloin's account of how the dwarves are doing after their restoration in Erebor. They are making good weapons and armor but not equal to their forebears who knowledge was lost. They have surpassed them in building though. I love King Dain and how he handles things especially with the emissary from Mordor.

Elrond is old, very old and I love his insight into having seen many fruitless victories. I love history and it has made me think that in each century we seem to experience fruitless victories that provide peace and security for awhile, but in the end, another evil arises. I wonder if we as a race will ever get beyond that? Will relationships, friendship, good food and conversation ever dominate over those that seek for power, dominion and to exercise compulsion upon their fellow people? Will there always be a battle or will we ever get to the point that we get beyond that? Sometimes I wonder . . .

Saruman in a sense reflects this to me. He states that his "high and ultimate purpose" is "Knowledge, Rule, Order" (p. 253). Seems that is often used as a reason to justify whatever action one wants to take. It really comes down to that. Someone thinks their way is the way and the only way. It is hubris and pride and in the end, at some point, I wonder what it leads to. I have always thought it would be interesting to write a story where one of these type of character actually wins, and dominates and controls and what it would be like to live in such a place. I think of Stalin for example who controlled all of the USSR for his life and what it would have been like to have to live under that regime and survive under it.

The Ring Goes South

I love the interaction between Bilbo and Frodo before the company leaves. I also love that Narsil was reforged at this time into Andruil because I love the notion that Aragorn as the heir of Isildur is going forth to battle and to seek to claim all that is truly meaningful to him, Arwen and restoring the kingdom of his fathers. It moves him forward with a compelling purpose that I have always liked. Legolas jokes in this chapter are the best but Boromir shows his mettle by suggesting taking wood with them and then making a path so the haflings can get down off the mountain. It seems here that the snowstorm is either caused by Sauron or by the mountain itself. Not sure on that but it could just be that the mountain is evil at heart . . . thoughts on that?

[Jude]

From memory, at least the members of the Fellowship thought the mountain itself was malevolent. Didn't one of the hobbits yell something like "Okay, okay, we're going!" as the mountain threw one last spiteful burst of snow at them? And I think the last words of the chapter are, "Caradhras had defeated them".

I'm way overdue for a re-reading. My problem is, I keep discovering more authors and more books.

[Dave_LF]

My impression is that Tolkien initially intended Sauron to be behind the storm in some perhaps indirect way, but as the story grew, he realized that didn't make much sense and backed off. But not entirely, which leaves things a bit enigmatic ("his arm has grown long"). There are a lot of things like that in book 1, but this may be the only one after that--I always felt the story firmed up a lot once they got to Moria.

[Frelga]

But also, they don't know and have no way of knowing for sure, not even after the fact. Sometimes, Tolkien just doesn't explain things. At least, not in the published works.

[ArathornJax]

One more thing I forgot from this part. I LOVE this song/poem. It is perhaps my favorite because I can related to it as I am getting older:
For me it is because it mentions the seasons and I do love the seasons (though winter is far too long some years). I love that the verse stanza is about life right now, and how being involved in life is a truly wonderful thing. It reminds me how much I LOVE being in nature and experiencing it.

The second stanza is about where I kinda of feel where I am at now. I'll be 60 next spring and now that I have grandchildren, I reflect how much the world has change since I was born in 1965 and I think how much more it will change in their lifetime. I also am coming to the point that I realize that though I have seen a LOT of places in my life, there are going to many places I want to see that I will never get to.

Last, last of all and I do think this is one of the themes of LOTR, life is about the relationships we have with each other, both family, friends and loved ones. It is about being interconnected with each other and valuing and treasuring each other and our time together. I now often wonder where the people I have known in my life, that I was once close with are, and what they are doing as I have allowed time or distance to dampen the relationship.


I sit beside the fire and think
Of all that I have seen
Of meadow-flowers and butterflies
In summers that have been
Of yellow leaves and gossamer
In autumns that there were
With morning mist and silver sun
And wind upon my hair.

I sit beside the fire and think
Of how the world will be
When winter comes without a spring
That I shall ever see
For still there are so many things
That I have never seen
In every wood in every spring
There is a different green

I sit beside the fire and think
Of people long ago
And people who will see a world
That I shall never know
But all the while I sit and think
Of times there were before
I listen for returning feet
And voices at the door

Do you have a favorite poem/song from the books and what is it and why do you like it?

[Alatar]

Like Voronwë said, its not made clear. That "his arm has grown long" line definitely suggests its Sauron, but then we get this subsequently:

‘Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name,’ said Gimli, ‘long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands.’

Personally, this is one of the few instances where I think PJ improved on Tolkien. The image of Saruman calling down a storm from the top of Orthanc is iconic, and makes more sense in the immediate context. At this stage he is the immediate threat. Sauron is safely miles away and the Nazgûl have no steeds.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Like Voronwë said, its not made clear.

I think that was Frelga, actually.

[Alatar]

Sorry it was Dave's post I meant

[Dave_LF]

To expand on that a little, it is obviously ok for Gandalf to be wrong sometimes (and he could weasel out of this one by pointing out that he didn't technically say it was Sauron, just that it could be; though hopefully he'd have too much integrity for that), but since Gandalf is the story's sage and expositor, it should be a pretty big deal/plot point when he is. It's sort of awkward storytelling for him to be casually wrong in a way that's unimportant and not even detectable except with a sharp eye in hindsight. Which is why I sort of suspect that Tolkien did believe Sauron was a possibility when he wrote his first draft of the chapter, and just never clarified it. Same for the "hounds of Sauron" that bother them in Hollin.

Edited to add the hounds of Sauron bit, at the same time that Alatar said the same thing

[Alatar]

Oh agreed, this is part of why I feel the early LotR is the most "seat of the pants" writing. Those who know me a while will recall the problem I have with disappearing Wargs. Again, they're just so out of keeping with the rest of the novel.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

But would be right in place in The Hobbit.

[Alatar]

Exactly

[ArathornJax]

Journey in the Dark

As they approached the doors of Moria, the passed over the northernmost corner of the lake and found the water was only ankle deep. I like how it shared here that "Frodo shuddered with disgust at the touch of the dark unclean water on his feet. Tolkien does a good job here of giving a foreshadow of the watcher in the water. The text says "there came a soft sound: a swish, followed by a plop, as if a fish had disturbed the still surface of the water. Turning quickly they saw ripples, black-edge with shadow in the waning light; great rings were widening outwards from a point far out in the lake. There was a bubbling noise, and then silence."

I also like the connection between Bill and Sam and how hard it was for Sam to set Bill loose with the wolves around. Also, the exchange with the company and Gimli and Gandalf in trying to figure out the password for the doors.

Frodo is now seized with a tentacle and the water was seething as if a host of snakes were swimming up from the southern end. Sam uses his sword and strikes the arm until Frodo is let go and then twenty other arms came rippling out. The dark water boiled and there was a hideous stench.

I don't believe in the text here we actually see the watcher's body, just the many arms. After they are safely in the mine, Frodo shared that he felt something horrible was near from the moment that my foot first touched the water. Frodo asks "what was the ting, or were there many of them?" Gandalf states he doens't know but the arms were guided by one purpose.

I also like as the travel through the mine that Aragorn shared his knowledge of Gandalf and reinforces that the member of the company should not be afraid. I have been with him on many a journey, if never on one so dark; and there are tales in Rivendell of greater deeds of his than any that I have see. He will not go astray-if there is any path to find. I would love to hear of the story besides the hunt for Gollum of the journies the two have shared.

The remainder of this trip I will share in the next post. What I like is the sense of darkness, the sense of loneliness and despair always seeming to hang over their journey. For me there is a sense that something is coming as the company continues to progress through the mines.