Politics in The Shire

[TolkienJRR]

Looks at the libertarian ways of the hobbits!

https://bibliotecanatalie.com/home/f/politics-in-shire

[N.E. Brigand]

Was Frodo wrong to say that an "invasion of dragons" might do the Shire some good?

[N.E. Brigand]

When Frodo, Sam, and Pippin met high elves in the Woody End of the Shire, the first thing Frodo asked was, “Who are you, and who is your lord?” The response was “I am… Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod.” The first and most important thing to know about a person was who their lord was (what customs they follow) and their heritage.

Why didn't Frodo ask this question of Tom Bombadil or Barliman Butterbur?

[narya]

I can see why Tolkien, hard at work with his professorial duties, writing when he had a free moment, and raising a family, would find the upper class hobbits' life of leisure to be attractive. Bilbo, Frodo, Merry and Pippin are landed gentry, who do not appear to spend any time actually working for a living - they have those under them to do that. Frodo, well into adulthood, spends his days wandering around in the forest and chatting with elves. The income that these hobbits need to purchase daily necessities seems to come from the income of their tenants, and later, from the spoils of their adventures. The elves do not seem to sow or reap either, yet they have fine clothing, food, and architecture. I wonder if they have an underclass to do all the grunt work. Well, this is, after all, a fantasy, so neither the economy nor the dragons need to have anything realistic to make them fly.

As for the "who is your lord?" question, the intent is to find out where the newcomers fit into the web of society, not what their governance looks like. I can imagine Frodo asking about societal/familial connections with elves, who seem to value that interconnection, and not of Tom Bombadil, who is clearly not connected to anyone but Goldberry.

[Frelga]

I remember one of our RPs in the old Pony, where a member jokingly introduced a Harry Potter-style house elves to do dirty jobs at Rivendell.

[TolkienJRR]

Was Frodo wrong to say that an "invasion of dragons" might do the Shire some good?

Lol, great question. I think both yes and no, but i would lean strongly NO!!

[TolkienJRR]

When Frodo, Sam, and Pippin met high elves in the Woody End of the Shire, the first thing Frodo asked was, “Who are you, and who is your lord?” The response was “I am… Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod.” The first and most important thing to know about a person was who their lord was (what customs they follow) and their heritage.

Why didn't Frodo ask this question of Tom Bombadil or Barliman Butterbur?

Great question.

They did ask Tom, he is the master of the woods. They were a bit preoccupied with old man willow at the first meet! And Barliman is an Inn keeper, not the same situation, they were looking for housing not to know about him or his customs. Further, it is very unlikely the Hobbits did not know the customs of the men of Bree, especially a Brandybuck. If a stranger of an unknown individual came to the Shire, my bet is they asked to know about them and who they were in a similar manner as did the hobbits who encountered Gildor.

[TolkienJRR]

I can see why Tolkien, hard at work with his professorial duties, writing when he had a free moment, and raising a family, would find the upper class hobbits' life of leisure to be attractive. Bilbo, Frodo, Merry and Pippin are landed gentry, who do not appear to spend any time actually working for a living - they have those under them to do that. Frodo, well into adulthood, spends his days wandering around in the forest and chatting with elves. The income that these hobbits need to purchase daily necessities seems to come from the income of their tenants, and later, from the spoils of their adventures. The elves do not seem to sow or reap either, yet they have fine clothing, food, and architecture. I wonder if they have an underclass to do all the grunt work. Well, this is, after all, a fantasy, so neither the economy nor the dragons need to have anything realistic to make them fly.

As for the "who is your lord?" question, the intent is to find out where the newcomers fit into the web of society, not what their governance looks like. I can imagine Frodo asking about societal/familial connections with elves, who seem to value that interconnection, and not of Tom Bombadil, who is clearly not connected to anyone but Goldberry.

Great post.

In an agrarian and libertarian society, one does not need much money, if any at all! But i agree with your assessment.

A great point, but it can also be both, both where they are in society and the society they come from. Tom is an anomaly in all things, but they did ask who he was, and Goldberry said he was the master of the woods but ruler of no one.

[N.E. Brigand]

When Frodo, Sam, and Pippin met high elves in the Woody End of the Shire, the first thing Frodo asked was, “Who are you, and who is your lord?” The response was “I am… Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod.” The first and most important thing to know about a person was who their lord was (what customs they follow) and their heritage.

Why didn't Frodo ask this question of Tom Bombadil or Barliman Butterbur?

They did ask Tom, he is the master of the woods.

They asked Tom "Who is your lord?" I don't remember that.

[TolkienJRR]

Why didn't Frodo ask this question of Tom Bombadil or Barliman Butterbur?

They did ask Tom, he is the master of the woods.

They asked Tom "Who is your lord?" I don't remember that.

Tom has no lord, Tom is unique. They asked who he was and discovered he is his own Master.

Also, they were preoccupied when they first met him.

[N.E. Brigand]

Tom has no lord, Tom is unique. They asked who he was and discovered he is his own Master. Also, they were preoccupied when they first met him.

Sure, but if "the first and most important thing to know about a person was who their lord was," then why didn't Frodo ask Bombadil that particular question (when he had time) as he also did of Gildor?

My point is this: if there's really only one example of Frodo asking that question, I'm not sure you can build a rule on it.

[Frelga]

Yes, I think it speaks more to Frodo's knowledge of how elves are organized than to how important the question is in general.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

If Frodo believed that "first and most important thing to know about a person was who their lord was (what customs they follow) and their heritage" it would seem that the person who would have been most likely to ask that question of would have been Faramir. I'm a bit fuzzy on that part of the book as it has been some days since I read it (maybe as much as two weeks!), so remind me of the passage in which Frodo asks Faramir that question.

ETA: What Frodo does say to Faramir is "And when you’ve finished discussing us, perhaps you’ll say who you are, and why you can’t let two tired travellers rest." Nothing about who his lord was. Even when Faramir later says "Know, little strangers, that Boromir son of Denethor was High Warden of the White Tower, and our Captain-General" Frodo still doesn't ask who Faramir's lord was, though perhaps by that point he has figured it out.

[Dave_LF]

Most of Middle Earth was anarchic wilderness or lightly-enforced borders. Asking a stranger you encounter in the wilds who their lord is would be something like asking the Antarctic exploration party yours encounters 200 miles from the pole what nation it belongs to.

[Frelga]

It does imply that if they answer, our lord is Plomperfil of Glooperpor, you'd know who that is and what it means for you.

[TolkienJRR]

Tom has no lord, Tom is unique. They asked who he was and discovered he is his own Master. Also, they were preoccupied when they first met him.

Sure, but if "the first and most important thing to know about a person was who their lord was," then why didn't Frodo ask Bombadil that particular question (when he had time) as he also did of Gildor?

My point is this: if there's really only one example of Frodo asking that question, I'm not sure you can build a rule on it.

Perhaps I did overstate it, but most everyone else they meet they are introduced to who they are or are told ahead of time. People divulge who their family is, who position in society they are and what people they belong to. It is vital information in Middle-earth and while not universal, the standard greeting of first thing to know (under normal circumstances).

And they did ask Goldberry and found that Tom is the Master of the woods.

[TolkienJRR]

If Frodo believed that "first and most important thing to know about a person was who their lord was (what customs they follow) and their heritage" it would seem that the person who would have been most likely to ask that question of would have been Faramir. I'm a bit fuzzy on that part of the book as it has been some days since I read it (maybe as much as two weeks!), so remind me of the passage in which Frodo asks Faramir that question.

ETA: What Frodo does say to Faramir is "And when you’ve finished discussing us, perhaps you’ll say who you are, and why you can’t let two tired travellers rest." Nothing about who his lord was. Even when Faramir later says "Know, little strangers, that Boromir son of Denethor was High Warden of the White Tower, and our Captain-General" Frodo still doesn't ask who Faramir's lord was, though perhaps by that point he has figured it out.

Admittedly, it has been a bit longer since I read it! I will have to look over the encounter and get back to you.

But, as i admitted to another poster, perhaps I overstated in this instance. And I was referring to generalities, more how a hobbit would interact under normal circumstances with a new induvial in the Shire, or traveling to a new area. When Frodo's mission is to stay hidden, on his vital quest, my thought his normal outgoing self and greeting he was accustomed to in The Shire, were set aside and held less priority than the ring.

[TolkienJRR]

Most of Middle Earth was anarchic wilderness or lightly-enforced borders. Asking a stranger you encounter in the wilds who their lord is would be something like asking the Antarctic exploration party yours encounters 200 miles from the pole what nation it belongs to.

Clearly, the elves and hobbits both disagreed! As did many others who introduced themselves as such, or Aragron and Gandalf and more who prepped others before they encountered various people and nations.

[Dave_LF]

What I mean is, it's hard to conclude much about Frodo's political philosophy from the fact that he asked the wandering elves about their "nationality"--we'd all probably do the same if we unexpectedly ran into someone while exploring one of Earth's few no-man's lands. All it really means is that we consider this information important for determining whether we can communicate with someone, and whether they're likely to be friendly or hostile.

Unless the point is to say it's significant that in Middle Earth, "what lord do you serve?" conveys the same sort of information that "what nation do you belong to?" does here.

[TolkienJRR]

What I mean is, it's hard to conclude much about Frodo's political philosophy from the fact that he asked the wandering elves about their "nationality"--we'd all probably do the same if we unexpectedly ran into someone while exploring one of Earth's few no-man's lands. All it really means is that we consider this information important for determining whether we can communicate with someone, and whether they're likely to be friendly or hostile.

Unless the point is to say it's significant that in Middle Earth, "what lord do you serve?" conveys the same sort of information that "what nation do you belong to?" does here.

What i mean to say is that Middel-earth was very feudal, as Tolkien stated it was. And so what modern might miss meant a bit more to hobbits and medieval peasants!