On the topic of Orcs as People...

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elengil
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On the topic of Orcs as People...

Post by elengil »

Smaug's voice's mentioned a preference for Orcs as 'embodiments of evil' vs 'people' and I disagree, but I think even Tolkien might well disagree. While their actions are almost always framed as evil from the POV of the narrative characters, he also gives them very people-y characteristics.

And while I had grown up on the Hobbit and The Return of the King cartoons - which had plenty of Orc songs - it never really sunk in that Orcs sang until someone had pointed out this passage specifically:
In a valley among the foothills of the mountains, below the springs of Thalos, [Finrod] saw lights in the evening, and far off he heard the sound of song. ... At first he feared that a raid of Orcs had passed the leaguer of the North,... for the singers used a tongue that he had not heard before, neither that of Dwarves nor of Orcs.

The Silmarillion - JRR Tolkien
If you hear singing and think it might be Orcs, either you are seriously deluded, or Orcs *did* sing, and perhaps I'm being sentimental but it's very hard not to take a people who sing and consider them *as* being people!


Anyway, I wrote a fic about it, set prior to Morgoth's release/return to Beleriand

______________________________


Stimp Stamp Mud Shluck



The two figures scuttled along the edge of the forest, avoiding as much as they could the distant lights above, but not so deep in that they were likely to run into the Dug-hai*, great tall beasts that lived in the trees and whose arrows pierced too easily their flesh.

When they came to where a stream emerged, they stopped and drank, though the clean water seemed more to choke them than refresh. The larger one grumbled about there being no fish to be had. The smaller one did not much care since, had there been any fish, the larger one would have eaten them all anyway, and there was a simple joy to be found in knowing their companion had been likewise deprived.

Mud shlucked at bare feet, and little curses followed for the sound carried too much for their liking, the larger of the two promising they’d relieve the other of their feet if they weren’t quieter. The ground firmed up again as they climbed the far bank, scrambling up the last bit that was much steeper than the rest.

When they got to the top, the smaller one sat down, poking at a gash they’d taken in the climb. Thick black blood oozed from the wound.

The larger one had moved on a short ways before noticing, returning as the smaller was smearing a vile-smelling salve over their wound and was just beginning to rip strips from their cloak - which was mostly gone as it was - to act as a bandage.

“What you be doin?” the larger demanded.

“Eyes empty as your ‘ead, aye?” the smaller spat back. “You see what Grom be doin’!”

“Sha! He be mighty mad if we ain’t back soon, and I be taking no whipping for you!”

“Grom takes me own lashes!” Grom said, as if they had some control over who got the punishments. “We be off again quick, soon as wrapped up.”

The other stamped their feet impatiently. “Ghâsh agh burzum!*”

“Stimp stamp,” Grom mocked. “Mugla can wait.” But they were already standing up again. The gash ached but not as much as their feet ached, and they had walked on them for leagues yet.

Mugla took hold of Grom’s tunic, no less filthy than their feet, and gave a good shake, then shoved them along. “No more wastin’ time!”

“Bah!” Grom said. “Time for what, aye? Scramble to make it ‘neath the whip ‘fore it falls? Grom sees sharp mountain teeth and think they be better than whip-masters.”

Mugla struck a vicious blow upside their head with the back of their hand and hissed, “Treason talk, Gûl*-take-you!”

“Talk you used to be at,” Grom said pointedly, mostly ignoring the blow, though their ears rang with it for a few seconds. “Till you got a fancy spot, ‘ead of patrol. Think you be Big Man now!”

“Bigger Man ‘an you be,” Mugla said. “Cut your dirty tongue out!”

“Nah you won’t,” Grom said, waving them off more like a troublesome fly. “Like me singing, you do. Where you be without Grom’s songs, eh?”

Without waiting for either denial nor confirmation, Grom took up a crude tune, making up the lyrics as they went.

Stimp stamp mud shluck
Give me rock a good ol’ chuck
’it ‘im in ‘is ugly ‘ead
Then we dance when ‘e be dead!

Mugla gave a toothy grin at the song, knowing should they ever be caught singing such a thing against the whip-masters they’d be fed to the wargs. But here, far from the pits and slave-pens, they had what might almost be called a chance to be themselves.

Stimp stamp damp maw
Bite and howl, slash and claw
If we good we gets a treat
Foul smelling maggot-meat

The song made the walking easier, though it was a risk. If the Dug-hai with the quick arrows heard them they’d be done for. But it was easier to march to the tune than even to the threat of whips. Out here, they could almost remember what it meant to not be held under the cruel will of the Dark Lord or his lieutenant.

Stimp stamp bog reeks
Over jagged toothy peaks
Live w’out them cruel lashes
We eat fat on mince and mashes

Mugla liked the idea of better eating. They prodded Grom to hurry up but to keep singing, too.

They had wills of their own, though bent mercilessly under Morgoth’s own. But He had been gone for a long age now, and though his lieutenant was no less cruel, they could feel their own thoughts in their heads again, especially this far from Angband.

There was not much else that could be called ‘theirs’. They did not rule themselves, they had no lands and held no titles (well, none that they generally wanted to claim, at any rate.) They did not order their own coming and going, nor choose where and upon whom to make war.

But they still had threads of memories older than they knew themselves. They still had mothers who whispered in their ears before they were old enough to be taken away and put to work. They still felt deep down the want to be free of their overlords, even if they were still too tied to their master’s will to be able to flee.

Out here was as close as they ever got to tasting freedom. Here they could, for a moment, remember that they had never lost their songs.


_________________________________

Orkish words per Orkish but don't hold me to being correct about how I used them.

Dug-hai - filth-folk, i.e. Elves (specifically Sindar)
Ghâsh agh burzum! - Fire and darkness!
Gûl - "any one of the major invisible servants of Sauron dominated entirely by his will"
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was a 2020 planner.

"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
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Eldy
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Re: On the topic of Orcs as People...

Post by Eldy »

I liked this a lot! Thanks for sharing it here, elengil. I'm often disheartened by the dehumanizing depiction of Orcs in fan works, so this is a breath of fresh air. And thanks especially for drawing my attention to that Silm quote! I'd never thought about the obvious implication from it before.
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elengil
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Re: On the topic of Orcs as People...

Post by elengil »

Eldy wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:24 am I liked this a lot! Thanks for sharing it here, elengil. I'm often disheartened by the dehumanizing depiction of Orcs in fan works, so this is a breath of fresh air. And thanks especially for drawing my attention to that Silm quote! I'd never thought about the obvious implication from it before.
I know, it's one of those things I've always overlooked in terms of its implications because the focus of the passage is so much on the Men he's discovering for the first time! It almost smacked me over the head when someone pointed it out! (which, of course, then inspired the fic)
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.

"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
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elengil
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Re: On the topic of Orcs as People...

Post by elengil »

There is an Silmarillion Writer's Guild that has monthly writing prompts that I've been following for a bit, and this month's prompt produced another Orcs as People fic from my brain, and I figured I'd share it here.

The prompt in this case was to pick a starting location which would provide you with a prompt for that location, and then possible routes from there to new locations - pick the next location accessible from your current and follow the prompt it gives you - it's called a Matryoshka challenge (the nesting dolls), and you could go anywhere from 2 to 7 or more location/prompts to craft the fic.

I apologize for the format, I enjoy the prompts but the site isn't terribly user or reader-friendly IMO. There are 7 "chapters"


>> It's a tad gruesome in places, be aware.

No Dreams In Darkness
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.

"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
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Re: On the topic of Orcs as People...

Post by Eldy »

This is wonderful! I tend to like stories about the people on the ground caught up in great events, and focusing on the Orkish perspective is especially valuable IMO for reasons we've talked about before. I think you strike a great balance between Kurn's essential humanity (at least, that's how I take it) and the lengths to which her horrible, brutalized life under Morgoth drives her to. The reference to Morgoth's mental domination/mind control was especially appreciated. I can only hope she was able to make it to the Ered Luin and find refuge there, but the ambiguous ending works really well here.
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Re: On the topic of Orcs as People...

Post by elengil »

:love:

Thank you! Yeah, originally I did have a different ending in mind but by the time I wound my way there I felt the ambiguity really fit the mood of the whole thing better.
Kurn's essential humanity
Yes, no matter how brutalized or buried, it's still there and it still wants to come out, even if it can only come out in broken ways in certain circumstances.
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.

"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
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Re: On the topic of Orcs as People...

Post by RoseMorninStar »

I've just now seen this thread. Quite thought provoking. It's been awhile since I've read the Sil and don't recall much about the Orcs other than they were tortured elves - a type of people. Or was the intention they were 'demon-corpses', as the Old English orc-né / orc-néas would imply? Like a zombie? I cannot help but wonder what Tolkien's intention was. I don't care for how orcs are portrayed in Jackson's films. The Uruk Hai seem to be more of a manufactured human tool created in an unnatural way, a weapon. An evil thing to do to a being.
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Re: On the topic of Orcs as People...

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Sadly, we have not seen elengil around here for a couple of years (I miss her!), but I decided to move this thread to the Shibboleth forum (with a Shadow in its original place in the Red Book forum), and use it to mention this new book by Robert T. Tally, Jr., which I think some here might find interesting.

The Mismeasure of Orcs: A Critical Reassessment of Tolkien’s Demonized Creatures

I'm familiar with Tally's work because I reviewed his last book, Representing Middle-earth: Tolkien, Form, and Ideology for the upcoming issue of Tolkien Studies and found that he has a refreshingly unique take on Tolkien's work. I think this new book could be quite interesting. There is a short sample at Amazon:
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Re: On the topic of Orcs as People...

Post by RoseMorninStar »

I was just thinking about elengil today. I miss her too.

The subject of the book looks to be fascinating.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
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