The Obama Phenomenon and the 2008 Presidential Campaign

[Angbasdil]

Pat Buchanon challenged Poppy Bush.

[Cerin]

I'm really confused after hearing it stated twice on NPR's 'Talk of the Nation' yesterday (I was busy with other things and so wasn't listening intently), once by the moderator and once by a caller, that Barak Obama is not an African American.

My understanding has been that 'African American' was the politically correct term for 'black', meaning an American with family or ancestors from Africa. Obama has an African father, so that would make him an African American by this definition. The only thing I can figure is that the speakers were defining African American as an American with African ancestors who were American slaves. But how on earth could you use that term then, without knowing the history of the person you were referring to?

Furthermore, I can't see how it would make a difference in how someone were treated in the U.S., if their parent were, like Obama's father, a person from Africa rather than a descendant of American slaves from Africa. I mean, most people wouldn't know that, even if it would make a difference in how they treated the person.

Is there anyone here who doesn't consider Obama an African American?

[Primula Baggins]

Here's video of an interesting interview Steven Colbert did with Debra Dickerson (who argues that Obama's not really black) a week or two ago on The Colbert Report:

Link

Colbert is a comedian (his schtick, for those unfamiliar with the Comedy Central show, is that he pretends to be a rather dim but fervent right-wing ideologue), but the discussion still lays out at least one writer's argument for Obama not being black.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Ax posted an article written by Debra Dickerson earlier in this thread that made that same argument:

http://www.thehalloffire.net/forum/view ... 3594#63594

[Cerin]

Thanks, Prim! That was very enlightening.

Apparently this woman is discounting the experience people have in the present merely because of the color of their skin, when others who discriminate against them do so solely because they are of different race, regardless of the history of slavery in this country.

She seems to attach more importance to history (as defining who a person is) than life experience. Because I can't see how someone's life experience as a black person in this country could possibly be shaped outwardly by something the people they encounter in their everyday life don't even know about them (i.e., that they don't have ancestors who were American slaves).

eta: cross-posted with V

I was aware of the notion that some people didn't consider Obama 'black' enough, but I'd not heard it stated that he wasn't African American. I wonder if this will lead to a reconsideration of what that term means now?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Apparently this woman is discounting the experience people have in the present merely because of the color of their skin, when others who discriminate against them do so solely because they are of different race, regardless of the history of slavery in this country.

She seems to attach more importance to history (as defining who a person is) than life experience. Because I can't see how someone's life experience as a black person in this country could possibly be shaped outwardly by something the people they encounter in their everyday life don't even know about them (i.e., that they don't have ancestors who were American slaves).

I agree with you Cerin.

But what I have been hearing more and more from the African-American community is the question isn't so much whether Obama is "black" or "African-American" but whether his policies will benefit them or not. There seems to be a thread of "we know that Hillary Clinton's policies will benefit us; Obama is more of an unknown". I heard a particularly interesting interview with Bobby Rush, the congressman from Illinois who defeated Obama in his first attempt to run for congress (he then bypassed the House and went straight to the Senate). Rush says he supports Obama, but he does have some doubts. One thing that he said that was interesting was that if Obama wants to solidly hold the African-American vote he should not try to distance himself from the civil rights movement, because the goals of the civil rights movement are still ongoing.

[axordil]

The question as to whether Obama (or ANY candidate) should expect automatic support from particular voting blocks merely because of race, sex, religion, or national origin is valid, and cuts in several directions.

The question as to whether he should be allowed to call himself black or African-American is, on the other hand, cultural posturing by self-appointed gatekeepers.

From what I've seen, Dickerson can't stop conflating the two, which leads to believe she's more interested in being one of those gatekeepers than actually addressing the first question.

[yovargas]

The discussion of whether he's "really" black makes me really mad.

[Cerin]

In the discussion I heard yesterday, one of the African American participants (I didn't get the name, but he was a politician and officeholder or past officeholder) said one of the problems other African Americans have with Obama is that he isn't enraged. He said that if Obama wants to connect with black American, then he has to understand their rage and focus on that history rather than just being the 'everyone should love everyone' candidate (I'm paraphrasing here).

So it appears to me that an attempt by Obama to transcend race will not be met with approval, at least by the black community, whereas I think it's one of the reasons whites are more comfortable with him.

Poor guy, what a tightrope he'll have to walk. I think it would be very cool if he just decided to be himself and not try to juggle all of these various demands and expectations.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the first black candidate for President who actually had a shot at being elected lost because of being rejected by the black community because he had no slave ancestors?!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

In the discussion I heard yesterday, one of the African American participants (I didn't get the name, but he was a politician and officeholder or past officeholder) said one of the problems other African Americans have with Obama is that he isn't enraged. He said that if Obama wants to connect with black American, then he has to understand their rage and focus on that history rather than just being the 'everyone should love everyone' candidate (I'm paraphrasing here).

That was in fact Bobby Rush (it tickles me to think that we listening to the same broadcast). But I don't think he was saying that Obama needs to focus on "that history" (in the way that Debra Dickerson is referring to). Rather, I think he was saying that he has to understand the anger that African-Americans still feel today at the discrimination and lack of equal opportunity that still exists today. And I think that is a very valid point.

[axordil]

Rush has the meat of the argument, precisely because he had NOT taken the step of then saying one can only understand it sufficiently if one has lived it. It's obvious that not going through an awful experience means you won't have the same visceral feelings about it...but it's also obvious that you don't have to go through it to know it's awful and should be fixed.

The subtext I get is that some self-appointed "leaders" within the black community resent the fact that Obama has in fact not kissed their backsides sufficiently, and are using the rest of the issue as a smokescreen for that.

[nerdanel]

I don’t consider Obama an African-American in the way we usually use the term - to refer to black descendants of those who were first enslaved, then legally segregated in every sense imaginable. I do not believe we use the term more broadly to refer to all of those who have parents from Africa, or even all those who are from Africa. I hope it is not inappropriate to make my point this way, but I’d be interested to hear how many Americans here (and I’m asking the Americans because this is a cultural term) would describe Griffy as an “African-American”? She is from Africa and she has moved to America...but it seems that that is not all we think of when we apply the label African-American to someone. (Stephen Colbert actually made this point as well some months ago, when he interviewed a white Congressman who spent his childhood years in Africa and queried him whether he considered himself an “African-American.”)

Obama is half-white, was raised in a white middle-class family, never knew his African father, and he is not a descendant of American slaves. He happens to have darker skin and a part-African heritage, but I would say that does not make him African-American in the sense we understand that term.

That said, like many with darker skin, he likely has experienced discrimination on the basis of his African ethnicity. If so, he would be able to relate to and identify with the experience of African-Americans (as I am defining that term), as well as other minorities. That life experience in itself is potentially a credential for public office, in my view. And that is more important to me than whether he is a descendant of slaves, but I understand why other people, particularly African-Americans, could take the opposite view.

So, why is it relevant whether or not he is “African-American”? I think it’s because the African-American past in this country is so painful, has been linked to so many outrageous forms of hatred and discrimination. And, as Dickerson said on Colbert, Obama is largely an “adopted brother” - he does not share in this painful legacy by virtue of his descent, nor was he raised in an African-American community or even by African-Americans. So, for whites to hold him up and say, “Aha! An African-American we’re comfortable with!” - I can see why so many members of the African-American community are less enthused. This ability of Obama to “transcend race” really reads to me (and to many blacks whose opinions I’ve heard or read) as a lack of deep-rooted identification with the historic, and present, struggle of the African-American community and the damn-well justified rage that many within that community feel. I agree with those who seem him as a person of half-African descent, but not as an African-American, with the cultural connotations that engenders.

And I think that the most succinct comment on this affair was made by Stephen Colbert, who announced, “Now, I don’t see color. People tell me that I’m white, and I believe them, because I think Barack Obama is black.”

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Great post (as always), nel.

[Primula Baggins]

As a copyeditor I am always asked to update ethnic terms from edition to edition as the acceptable ones change. These days, for books about Americans, I am mostly changing "Black" to "African American." "White" stays "White." I strongly suspect that Griffy would be "White" because she was never "Black."

Americans, at least white Americans like me (I hate capping it, they make me do it), tend to judge race by appearance, not family history. Though what makes the most sense to me is to call people by the term they call themselves.

Obama had a essentially a "white" childhood, but in running for President he faces the same prejudices as anyone who appears to be African American, whether he meets the accepted criteria or not.

My husband's reaction to Debra Dickerson's interview on Colbert was to ask me whether I thought I should be considered less of an "American" than him because my ancestors came over in the 1890s and his came in the 1640s. I didn't know how to answer him, really. I have trouble understanding how two people who appear to be of the same ethnic background, are living in the same culture, and have had the same kinds of personal experiences can be considered to have different ethnic identities because of their ancestors' experiences.

I'm not attacking the idea; I'm just saying I don't understand it.

[axordil]

Prim--
I understand it. It exists because enough people profit from the distinction to keep it alive and kicking, even when it ends up leaving people dead and buried.

Nel--
I don't deny that the rage is justified. I do think it will be a while, say, forever, before someone who is filled with that rage gets into the White House. Rage works in races up to the US House because it works for specific constituencies--and doesn't work for any larger jurisdictions, because it breaks down outside those constituencies.

I would also say that I am getting increasingly resentful of people (not necessarily you, you're just the messenger) telling me why I like Obama as a candidate. How about this one: I like his positions, for the most part, and I think he can win.

[vison]

How many slaves of African descent are still walking around in the US?

From an outsider's point of view, it seems absurd to try to separate Mr. Obama from his colour! He was never a slave, and neither were any other African-Americans alive now. He is no more removed from it than they are.

Truthfully, from where I sit, it seems that he is being discriminated against because he didn't come up in the African-American power structure.

What do African-Americans want? Is that even a valid question? Do they all want the same things? I doubt it, myself. Mr. Obama may well appeal to many, or to a few, but I would hope that appeal is based on what he might do, rather than who his great-grandfather was.

[nerdanel]

No time to respond further now, but Ax, I'm really confused which part of my post you interpret as explaining why you like Obama (which, frankly, I wasn't even aware you did.) I did say that Obama was being held up by whites (obviously, a subset of whites) as someone with whom they were comfortable, but I don't think I provided any reasons for that. I'm just asking, because I want to make sure not to inform anyone else why they specifically like candidates, in future.

(OTOH, I think it's legitimate to comment on why members of demographics, more broadly, like or dislike certain candidates and positions. After all, this entire subdiscussion is a commentary on why (some) African-Americans are publically stating that they do not see Obama as one of them.)

[Cerin]

That was in fact Bobby Rush (it tickles me to think that we listening to the same broadcast). But I don't think he was saying that Obama needs to focus on "that history" (in the way that Debra Dickerson is referring to). Rather, I think he was saying that he has to understand the anger that African-Americans still feel today at the discrimination and lack of equal opportunity that still exists today. And I think that is a very valid point.

Thanks for pointing out that distinction, Voronwë! I was thinking that maybe the connection between Dickerson's points and what you said earlier about policy was that some African Americans wonder if someone will be motivated to formulate the right policies if they don't understand the anger.

But I still have trouble with the idea that someone who doesn't have slave ancestors would be less likely to understand the anger. After all, non of today's descendants of slaves were slaves themselves, so how can such a person better understand the pain of discrimination than someone who is also discriminated against because of skin color, just because the former had slave ancestors and the latter didn't? It seems to me the more salient aspect of racism is the discrimination and lack of equal opportunity you mentioned above, not the historic aspects of US slavery (which I think no one now alive can claim first hand knowledge of?)

What I'm trying to get at is that I don't understand the impact of having had a slave ancestor, on the real life experiences of racism and discrimination that surely everyone of color, including Obama, must have encountered in this country.

It almost seems to me that Dickerson's objections must have more to do with a certain cultural consciousness she considers vital, which she and other blacks doubt Obama has acquired because his father is not a black American and therefore cannot have instilled it in or transmitted it to his son. And I think it's that very thing, or lack of it -- the lack of resentment, anger, focus on race -- that makes Obama unusually appealing as a black candidate to alot of white Americans.

It's obvious that not going through an awful experience means you won't have the same visceral feelings about it...but it's also obvious that you don't have to go through it to know it's awful and should be fixed.

But that's just it, Ax. What is it that Obama is supposed to have not gone through, that other people of color with slave antecedents have gone through in their experience? Is it actually a claim that a person of color in the US whose own ancestors were not slaves (and is it certain that none of Obama's fathers ancestors were slaves?) has a less painful life experientially, i.e., is treated differently, than a person of color whose ancestors were slaves?

In other words, what is it that Dickerson thinks she has experienced that she thinks Obama has not experienced as a person of African descent in the United States?

I don’t consider Obama an African-American in the way we usually use the term - to refer to black descendants of those who were first enslaved, then legally segregated in every sense imaginable.

I didn't think that is how 'we' usually use the term, which is why I was so surprised to hear it challenged in reference to Obama. Why is it significant to someone's present daily experience that their descendants were or were not enslaved and segregated? How does it change how people treat that person of color on a daily basis? They do not wear a scarlet letter 'S' on their persons, so people know to treat them differently than other people of color who do not have slave ancestors.

I do not believe we use the term more broadly to refer to all of those who have parents from Africa, or even all those who are from Africa. I hope it is not inappropriate to make my point this way, but I’d be interested to hear how many Americans here (and I’m asking the Americans because this is a cultural term) would describe Griffy as an “African-American”? She is from Africa and she has moved to America...but it seems that that is not all we think of when we apply the label African-American to someone.

As I said, I thought 'African American' meant a black American, i.e., an American with some obviously African lineage. That's why I wouldn't refer to Griff as an African-American -- because she isn't black.

So nel, do you make sure of the history of all black American citizens of your acquaintance or to whom you refer in speech, before referring to them as 'African American'? Do you use some other term to refer to US citizens who seem to have some African lineage, whose histories you haven't vetted?

Obama had a essentially a "white" childhood, but in running for President he faces the same prejudices as anyone who appears to be African American, whether he meets the accepted criteria or not.

Surely Obama faced the same prejudices and discrimination that other obviously mixed race children face in white communities. I believe Halle Berry was raised by a white mother, yet no one seemed to hold it against her as the first African American woman to win an Oscar. Or perhaps the American black community does regard her as less black as well? And Alicia Keyes, and others of mixed race.

From an outsider's point of view, it seems absurd to try to separate Mr. Obama from his colour! He was never a slave, and neither were any other African-Americans alive now. He is no more removed from it than they are.

Yes, thanks for stating that so succinctly. I don't get it.

Do Jews who were personally involved in or have direct relatives who were personally involved in the Holocaust consider less Jewish those who didn't? (Would anyone consider that an apt analogy?)

[axordil]

Cerin--

What is it that Obama is supposed to have not gone through, that other people of color with slave antecedents have gone through in their experience?

It's more what his parents and grandparents et al didn't go through, and where that was likely to position him at the "starting line" as it were. Being raised by someone who has a particularly negative set of cultural expectations has an effect on people. An immigrant to the US is going to have rather more positive expectations about the US, since they are going there by choice, than someone raised in a crappy neighborhood with crappy schools by parents who remember all too well what the US was like before the Civil Rights movement.

Nel--

So, for whites to hold him up and say, “Aha! An African-American we’re comfortable with!” - I can see why so many members of the African-American community are less enthused.

There is a huge difference between this and acknowledging the fact that he's not a deliberately divisive candidate, though. That's because he's in it to win, not to prove or score a point or force a particular agenda to be recognized by the party.

edit to add--

(OTOH, I think it's legitimate to comment on why members of demographics, more broadly, like or dislike certain candidates and positions. After all, this entire subdiscussion is a commentary on why (some) African-Americans are publically stating that they do not see Obama as one of them.)

Actually it's not some, it's a handful of individuals who are mostly, so far as I can tell, PO'd that he didn't ask their permission first. And it's from them who I won't accept my reason for supporting him.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Ax, I agree that there is only a handful of people that PO'd at Obama (really I think it is that they are jealous of him). But I think that more broadly there is more general concern within the African-American community as to whether Obama's policies would benefit them more then, say Hillary Clinton's policies, or John Edward's policies. And I think that is a positive thing, that people are not saying that they are going to vote for him simply because he has roughly the same skin color as they do. As Rush said, it's up to Obama to convince African-Americans that his policies would benefit them more then Clinton's or Edwards'.