The Book of Job discussion

[Frelga]

Couple points, though. The Hebrew text refers to HaSatan - THE Satan, implying job description rather than name. Also, like other Jewish versions of translations, it says that the accuser came among children of God, rather than with them.

Without meaning to be "unnecessary" (SirDennins), my understanding of "Satan" is that it was a specific role, from which opposing argument to a proposition was put; hence "Devil's Advocate" in modern parlance.

I believe this it's correct. More precisely, that's what Wiki says, which is the extent of my knowledge. He is the prosecutor of the heavenly court.

SirD , I don't know about angels. My Hebrew is spotty at best. I always thought it was malachim but I could be wrong. I do know "children of God" is used more than once.

[SirDennis]

One could extract a larger existential message from Job's wife's utterance: what's the point of living a life of faith when there are clearly no promises to be had that you get anything out of it? This touches on the deepest orthodox (small O) meaning of Job, which is less about defending God than defending the point of righteous living. God, as God points out, is not subject to human judgment--but God's rules for humans ARE, because they're down here applying to us, not dancing around the ineffable up there in the realms of gold.

Yes, I can see where this may follow from the story as I know it so far. There is the prosperity and protection he enjoyed, and regained after the trial, but if you take those things away from the story (or as you have said, without their addition or belief in their reliability) we are left with the existential question you posit.

I don't. I think she was simply sick of the whole thing and wanted it to be over, already.

Also, is it not ironic that Job refused to blame God for all his troubles, when it was in fact, God who was responsible? DId Job ever twig to the fact that he was merely a pawn in some stupid bet God had going on with the Devil?

Her being "sick of the whole thing" adds another dimension that perhaps you have explored (given a now distant conversation about Mary we had here, I can't help but wonder): What was happening to Job, was also happening to his wife. Yet she seems to be waiting on him to decide how to respond in order to bring some relief to both of them.

Without meaning to be "unnecessary" (SirDennins), my understanding of "Satan" is that it was a specific role, from which opposing argument to a proposition was put; hence "Devil's Advocate" in modern parlance.

Ghân, taken out of context, what I said does seem over harsh, sorry about that. I'm glad you stuck around.

So what you are saying is Satan doesn't exist the way God exists (and no, this isn't me unwittingly inviting a debate about whether God exists or not ); rather he is role or a function depending on the context. I find a straight interpretation of your statement too tempting not to paraphrase: in this case, another name for the Devil is "The Opposition."

[SirDennis]

So I wanted to run an answer to the question of why Job needed a hedge of protection; Ax will like this one...

If we go back to Genesis Chapter 3, we see this (v17 Hebrew-English Bible (HEB)):

"And unto Adam He said: 'Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying: Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life."

The point above is not that Adam suddenly had to work where he didn't have to before (in Gen 2:15 HEB it says "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it," which is Adam had work to do in the Garden) rather that the ground (the Earth) would be cursed. (The "for thy sake" part may mean that life will no longer be as easy as it was in the Garden, in order that Adam (man) should remember God and his commands, or that he needs God...)

[SirDennis]

Might as well dive right into Job's first speech.

Job 3
Job breaks his silence

Please read your preferred version here or H-EB

Job 3 NLT

At last Job spoke, and he cursed the day of his birth. He said:

“Let the day of my birth be erased,
and the night I was conceived.
Let that day be turned to darkness.
Let it be lost even to God on high,
and let no light shine on it.
Let the darkness and utter gloom claim that day for its own.
Let a black cloud overshadow it,
and let the darkness terrify it.
Let that night be blotted off the calendar,
never again to be counted among the days of the year,
never again to appear among the months.
Let that night be childless.
Let it have no joy.
Let those who are experts at cursing—
whose cursing could rouse Leviathan —
curse that day.
Let its morning stars remain dark.
Let it hope for light, but in vain;
may it never see the morning light.
Curse that day for failing to shut my mother’s womb,
for letting me be born to see all this trouble."

“Why wasn’t I born dead?
Why didn’t I die as I came from the womb?
Why was I laid on my mother’s lap?
Why did she nurse me at her breasts?
Had I died at birth, I would now be at peace.
I would be asleep and at rest.
I would rest with the world’s kings and prime ministers,
whose great buildings now lie in ruins.
I would rest with princes, rich in gold,
whose palaces were filled with silver.
Why wasn’t I buried like a stillborn child,
like a baby who never lives to see the light?
For in death the wicked cause no trouble,
and the weary are at rest.
Even captives are at ease in death,
with no guards to curse them.
Rich and poor are both there,
and the slave is free from his master."

“Oh, why give light to those in misery,
and life to those who are bitter?
They long for death, and it won’t come.
They search for death more eagerly than for hidden treasure.
They’re filled with joy when they finally die,
and rejoice when they find the grave.
Why is life given to those with no future,
those God has surrounded with difficulties?
I cannot eat for sighing;
my groans pour out like water.
What I always feared has happened to me.
What I dreaded has come true.
I have no peace, no quietness.
I have no rest; only trouble comes.”

(New Living Translation http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NLT)

Question:

1. There are 3 distinct aspects of Job's first speech. What are they?
2. The last four lines perhaps tell us something about Job that may be in line with the first Blake reference Ax shared. Do you see it?
3. Is Job doing anything wrong here (not a trick question)?
4. Who or what is Job cursing?

Next up Eliphaz (a friend) Responds

[axordil]

RE: 2. Well, I see it.

As to what he's cursing: it is hard to separate cursing the day one was born alive in this context and not see it as a thinly veiled swipe at God, who in the universe of Job is the author of human experience.

[SirDennis]

RE: 2. Well, I see it.

As to what he's cursing: it is hard to separate cursing the day one was born alive in this context and not see it as a thinly veiled swipe at God, who in the universe of Job is the author of human experience.

Yes I'm leaning in that direction as well, given all the created in God's image stuff, as well as (what is assumed by some to be) the work of providence governing such things as when, where and in what manner one is born.

[SirDennis]

Sorry for the break...

I have found a few Bible versions that are in the public domain which allows me to reproduce the text at length without fear of copyright infringement. I'll switch up the text among those versions, but will continue to provide links to a site where you can access other versions -- simply click on the chapter title (or HEB for the Hebrew-English Bible). As well, rather than ask questions which may imply an agenda on my part, I will simply post the text with some observations (in blue). Please feel free to comment on my observations or on any other part of the text.

Job 4 (Hebrew Names Version) or HEB

Elifaz Responds

1 Then Elifaz the Temanite answered, 2 "If someone ventures to talk with you, will you be grieved? But who can withhold himself from speaking?

Hmm Elifaz is concerned about seeming disrespectful of Job's suffering, but also feels compelled to respond.

3 Behold, you have instructed many, You have strengthened the weak hands. 4 Your words have supported him who was falling, You have made firm the feeble knees. 5 But now it is come to you, and you faint; It touches you, and you are troubled. 6 Isn't your piety your confidence, The integrity of your ways your hope?

Interesting passage. This gives us some background about Job: when he wasn't busy making blood sacrifices (a practice traced back to Able (Gen 4)) he was a teacher or community leader of some sort. To Elifaz that is praise worthy...

But Elifaz crosses a line here. Basically his praise turns into a taunt when he says, "your advise was okay for others, but now that it's you who are suffering it's not good enough?" He also implies that Job's confidence was (or perhaps ought to be) in his practices, rather than the object of those practices.

7 "Remember, now, whoever perished, being innocent? Or where were the upright cut off? 8 According to what I have seen, those who plow iniquity, And sow trouble, Reap the same. 9 By the breath of God they perish, By the blast of his anger are they consumed. 10 The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, The teeth of the young lions, are broken. 11 The old lion perishes for lack of prey, The whelps of the lioness are scattered abroad.

On the surface this is true, but surely the righteous have perished? Or is this perhaps an echo of the idea "none are righteous, no not one?" I wonder if Elifaz isn't touching on the difference between outward piety and inward sin? Apart from Job's statement about his fears (which may have been hyperbolic in the throes of anguish) there is nothing to suggest he is reaping what he sowed.

12 "Now a thing was secretly brought to me, My ear received a whisper of it. 13 In thoughts from the visions of the night, When deep sleep falls on men, 14 Fear came on me, and trembling, Which made all my bones shake. 15 Then a spirit passed before my face; The hair of my flesh stood up. 16 It stood still, but I couldn't discern the appearance of it; A form was before my eyes. Silence, then I heard a voice, saying, 17 'Shall mortal man be more just than God? Shall a man be more pure than his Maker? 18 Behold, he puts no trust in his servants. He charges his angels with error. 19 How much more, those who dwell in houses of clay, Whose foundation is in the dust, Who are crushed before the moth! 20 Between morning and evening they are destroyed. They perish forever without any regarding it. 21 Isn't their tent-cord plucked up within them? They die, and that without wisdom.'

In verses 12-21 Elifaz describes what appears to be a prophetic dream. It is not clear to me whether he had this dream himself, or if he is trying to elevate himself to the status of a prophet for effect. I'm not suggesting that what he said is not true. But it paints a picture of God that may not be entirely accurate: (to me) he is saying, God crushes people because he can, because they are essentially worthless. While it is true God can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants to, is this really how God views his creation? Hopefully the rest of the text will give us an answer.

ps I'm hoping to get these up daily from now on, that we may get through the entire book of Job sometime before the middle of May.

[SirDennis]

I encourage you to check the HEB link, it's a solid translation... just not sure I can reproduce it here.

Job 5 (HNB) or HEB

Elifaz continues his first argument

1 "Call now; is there any who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn?
2 For resentment kills the foolish man, And jealousy kills the simple.
3 I have seen the foolish taking root, But suddenly I cursed his habitation.
4 His children are far from safety, They are crushed in the gate. Neither is there any to deliver them,
5 Whose harvest the hungry eats up, And take it even out of the thorns; The snare gapes for their substance.
6 For affliction doesn't come forth from the dust, Neither does trouble spring out of the ground;
7 But man is born to trouble, As the sparks fly upward.

Elifaz is becoming bolder (as if offering his dream as truth wasn't bold enough already). Basically he says here, "no one who is righteous will defend you because unlike them, obviously you have done something wrong to bring such a curse upon yourself."

The comment about trouble springing from the ground may be in direct opposition to Gen 3:17-19 in which God says to Adam the ground is cursed because of him [disobeying God's one command], it will produce thorns and thistles, and [unlike in Eden] Adam will only eat from the soil by the sweat of his brow. I mention this because if Job was performing sacrifices as Able did, it is not much of a stretch that he would also know that the ground was cursed, not Adam. This passage is problematic because it is clear that Elifaz thought he was in the right, as the rest of this chapter suggests.

8 "But as for me, I would seek God, To God would I commit my cause;
9 Who does great things that can't be fathomed, Marvelous things without number;
10 Who gives rain on the eretz, And sends waters on the fields;
11 So that he sets up on high those who are low, Those who mourn are exalted to safety.
12 He frustrates the devices of the crafty, So that their hands can't perform their enterprise.
13 He takes the wise in their own craftiness; The counsel of the cunning is carried headlong.
14 They meet with darkness in the day-time, And grope at noonday as in the night.
15 But he saves from the sword of their mouth, Even the needy from the hand of the mighty.
16 So the poor has hope, And injustice shuts her mouth.

From my reading elsewhere in the Bible, substantively this is good advice.

17 "Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects: Therefore do not despise the chastening of Shaddai.

Shaddai [aka El Shaddai] is a name of God: "The All Sufficient God." There is a verse in the NT that aligns with what Elifaz says in v 17. In James 1:12a it says "God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation." (NLT) Actually this is one of the key teachings of Job, and is a fine example of how the OT is part and parcel of the NT (IOW the NT refers to the OT so much that one wonders where anyone got the idea that they could be a NT only Christian.)

18 For he wounds, and binds up; He injures, and his hands make whole.
19 He will deliver you in six troubles; Yes, in seven there shall no evil touch you.
20 In famine he will redeem you from death; In war, from the power of the sword.
21 You shall be hidden from the scourge of the tongue, Neither shall you be afraid of destruction when it comes.
22 At destruction and famine you shall laugh, Neither shall you be afraid of the animals of the eretz.
23 For you shall be in league with the stones of the field. The animals of the field shall be at shalom with you.
24 You shall know that your tent is in shalom. You shall visit your fold, and shall miss nothing.
25 You shall know also that your seed shall be great, Your offspring as the grass of the eretz.
26 You shall come to your grave in a full age, Like a shock of grain comes in its season.
27 Look this, we have searched it, so it is; Hear it, and know it for your good."

V 27 is interesting in that along with the sayings from v 18-26, much of it echoed in Isaiah, Genesis and elsewhere, Elifaz is asserting that all of what he has said is true, and that his friends agree. It is important to keep in mind that Elifaz and his friends are religious men who have a great deal of confidence in what they say here about God and his ways. In other words they believe they know what they're talking about. But just in this first argument it appears there are some ideas that may not be as sound as Elifaz believes or claims them to be...

[JewelSong]

I'm going on record now as saying that I always thought Job's 3 friends were self-righteous twits. I mean, with friends like these...

[axordil]

They are self righteous, but they are also mouthing things that are found all over the OT, both in the locations SirD indicates and places like Proverbs. In other words, as SirD notes, they have reason to believe they understand God. given the conventional wisdom.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Goes to show how much you can trust conventional wisdom.

[Dave_LF]

This thing about conventional wisdom is, it doesn't take context into account. The right behavior in one situation might be the complete opposite of the right behavior in another, but a pithy saying doesn't capture that. So you can use conventional wisdom to justify anything. Look before you leap, but he who hesitates is lost. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, but out of sight, out of mind. The pen is mightier than the sword, but actions speak louder than words. And so on.

[SirDennis]

This thing about conventional wisdom is, it doesn't take context into account. The right behavior in one situation might be the complete opposite of the right behavior in another, but a pithy saying doesn't capture that.

Yes I think (at least I have been lead to understand) we will see that even where their words may be true, it is their use in this context that is unhelpful tending to cruel. Job is looking for mercy but his first friend says "you must have done something to deserve this." What!?! Whether or not that is true, it is far from merciful to say so.

Closer to your point, even if his friends didn't condemn or blame (or accuse) Job, saying something like "always look on the bright side of life" or "don't worry, things will get better" (which is partially what Elifaz says), is the opposite of sympathy or mercy.

Job believes in his integrity, his blamelessness; not that they will earn him something, just that he believes he has done nothing wrong (as we will see in his first and subsequent rebuttals). Essentially his religious friends believe otherwise.

[vison]

Religious friends always do.

[Ghân-buri-Ghân]

This thing about conventional wisdom is, it doesn't take context into account. The right behavior in one situation might be the complete opposite of the right behavior in another, but a pithy saying doesn't capture that.

Yes I think (at least I have been lead to understand) we will see that even where their words may be true, it is their use in this context that is unhelpful tending to cruel. Job is looking for mercy but his first friend says "you must have done something to deserve this." What!?! Whether or not that is true, it is far from merciful to say so.

Closer to your point, even if his friends didn't condemn or blame (or accuse) Job, saying something like "always look on the bright side of life" or "don't worry, things will get better" (which is partially what Elifaz says), is the opposite of sympathy or mercy.

Job believes in his integrity, his blamelessness; not that they will earn him something, just that he believes he has done nothing wrong (as we will see in his first and subsequent rebuttals). Essentially his religious friends believe otherwise.

I think Job's friends are being unfairly criticised. I would guess that in their culture, divine interventions would be expected to be a consequence of specific acts. A favourable intervention would be to reward righteousness; an unfavourable intervention a punishment. Job certainly appears to be being punished; what God would punish so absolutely a righteous man? With the evidence before their eyes, the only conclusion Job's friends could possibly reach is that Job has sinned grievously in the eyes of God. Yet even so, they still express love for him. They don't abandon him. As such, they maintain their integrity.

I feel it is unjust to be so critical of their words.

[SirDennis]

Job's first rebuttal is beautiful... a defence, couched in a lament, whose power lays in its truth in so far as Job believes he is innocent. Despite the state in which his losses and affliction have left him, he gets a little feisty by the end of chapter 6 and into chapter 7.

Just a note: As I will be travelling tomorrow, below is Job's entire first response (Job 6 and 7). It's a bit much for casual reading so take your time...

Job 6 (HNV) or HEB

Job (Iyov) Responds

1 Then Iyov answered,
2 "Oh that my anguish were weighed, And all my calamity laid in the balances!
3 For now it would be heavier than the sand of the seas, Therefore have my words been rash.
4 For the arrows of Shaddai are within me, My spirit drinks up their poison. The terrors of God set themselves in array against me.
5 Does the wild donkey bray when he has grass? Or does the ox low over his fodder?

Reading this again, I noticed that Job is saying a lot here. In verse 3 he points to the reason for his words up to this point, seeming to acknowledge that some of those words may have been rash. It's kind of a conditional repentance: "I wouldn't have spoke thusly but for these infernal boils and the graves of my children stretched out before me."

The other thing he seems to be saying, in v 5, is that although the words Elifaz spoke may have been intended as nourishment (of a spiritual sort), he did not find them as such -- the proof is in his braying. Of course v 5 may also be referring to whatever benefit God may have intended by allowing the enemy to afflict him. Verse 6 rephrases the idea though continues the metaphor of eating and taste so I'm leaning towards him talking about his friend's words more than God's purpose.

6 Can that which has no flavor be eaten without salt? Or is there any taste in the white of an egg?
7 My soul refuses to touch them; They are as loathsome food to me.

Job's suffering is great, and he is finding Elifaz's reasoning most unhelpful if not detestable. Ever been there?

8 "Oh that I might have my request; That God would grant the thing that I long for!
9 Even that it would please God to crush me; That he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
10 Be it still my consolation, Yes, let me exult in pain that doesn't spare, That I have not denied the words of the Holy One.

This is an idea Job will return to in varying degrees of clarity through the debate. Essentially he is saying, "God can do whatever he wants with me, but I will not abandon his precepts (or curse him)."

11 What is my strength, that I should wait? What is my end, that I should be patient?
12 Is my strength the strength of stones? Or is my flesh of brass?
13 Isn't it that I have no help in me, That wisdom is driven quite from me?

"Why is my death forestalled? I'm just a man after all, with no power of mind or body of my own to endure life such as this." I think Job is saying too that reason is no help in the face of his calamity.

14 "To him who is ready to faint, kindness should be shown from his friend; Even to him who forsakes the fear of Shaddai.
15 My brothers have dealt deceitfully as a brook, As the channel of brooks that pass away;
16 Which are black by reason of the ice, in which the snow hides itself:
17 In the dry season, they vanish. When it is hot, they are consumed out of their place.

I love this description: water frozen (and treacherous) in winter, and vanished when needed to quench thirst. Still Job refers to his friends as brothers here.

18 The caravans that travel beside them turn aside; They go up into the waste, and perish.
19 The caravans of Tema looked, The companies of Sheva waited for them.
20 They were put to shame because they had hoped; They came there, and were confounded.
21 For now you are nothing. You see a terror, and are afraid.
22 Did I say, 'Give to me?' Or, 'Offer a present for me from your substance?'
23 Or, 'Deliver me from the adversary's hand?' Or, 'Redeem me from the hand of the oppressors?'

Nope, not pleased with his friends just now. Job even goes so far as to say, "assuming your advice could do more than 'confound' did I ask for it?"

24 "Teach me, and I will hold my shalom; Cause me to understand wherein I have erred.
25 How forcible are words of uprightness! But your reproof, what does it reprove?
26 Do you intend to reprove words, Seeing that the speeches of one who is desperate are as wind?
27 Yes, you would even cast lots for the fatherless, And make merchandise of your friend.
28 Now therefore be pleased to look at me, For surely I shall not lie to your face.
29 Please return. Let there be no injustice; Yes, return again, my cause is righteous.
30 Is there injustice on my tongue? Can't my taste discern mischievous things?

"I see right through you Elifaz. If you have something useful to say, then say it and I will listen." (Yes I see that Job's way of saying it is far more eloquent.) Job notes here that in his condition, his words are not entirely blameworthy. I wonder if he's referring to his first lament after they all sat in silence for 7 days?

Job 7 (HNV) or HEB

Job's first response (cont'd)

1 "Isn't a man forced to labor on eretz? Aren't his days like the days of a hired hand?
2 As a servant who earnestly desires the shadow, As a hireling who looks for his wages,
3 So am I made to possess months of misery, Wearisome nights are appointed to me.

This is a closer reading of Gen 3:17-19 than Elifaz managed... not that I'm suggesting Genesis was written before Job (honestly I don't know).

4 When I lie down, I say, 'When shall I arise, and the night be gone?' I toss and turn until the dawning of the day.
5 My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust. My skin closes up, and breaks out afresh.
6 My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, And are spent without hope.
7 Oh remember that my life is a breath. My eye shall no more see good.
8 The eye of him who sees me shall see me no more. Your eyes shall be on me, but I shall not be.
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanishes away, So he who goes down to She'ol shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, Neither shall his place know him any more.

"him who sees me" I wonder if this might better be rendered El Roi, God who sees me, the same God Hagar met at the well after she fled Sarai? Sigh, poor Job...

11 "Therefore I will not keep silent. I will speak in the anguish of my spirit. I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
12 Am I a sea, or a sea-monster, That you put a guard over me?
13 When I say, 'My bed shall comfort me, My couch shall ease my complaint;'
14 Then you scar me with dreams, And terrify me through visions:
15 So that my soul chooses strangling, Death rather than my bones.
16 I loathe my life. I don't want to live forever. Leave me alone; for my days are but a breath.

Here Job is expanding his statements made above, that he knows no peace, even at rest. He longs for death, his life is pain and lacking purpose as far as he can tell. He also asserts his right to object to what has happened to him, even if it is his only consolation.

17 What is man, that you should magnify him, That you should set your mind on him,
18 That you should visit him every morning, And test him every moment?
19 How long will you not look away from me, Nor leave me alone until I swallow down my spittle?
20 If I have sinned, what do I do to you, you watcher of men? Why have you set me as a mark for you, So that I am a burden to myself?
21 Why do you not pardon my disobedience, and take away my iniquity? For now shall I lie down in the dust. You will seek me diligently, but I shall not be."

Job shifts his stance -- just in case? We learned this about him in chpts 1+2. While he will continue to maintain his innocence to his friends, when he is talking directly to God it seems he allows for the fact that he (we) cannot know the mind of God. I don't think he is admitting guilt, just that he really has no idea why things turned sour (to put it mildly) for him. In a way, in direct appeal to God he asks "is there something I've missed?" Regardless, it is not clear that he buys into the idea that he is being punished for something, or that he does not deserve mercy. And, as he said himself in verse 6:13, "I may not be in my right mind just now [please don't hold it against me]."

Hope you are enjoying this as much as I am. Hopefully on Saturday we will meet Job's (Iyov's... I like that better) second friend.

Edit: added observation after Job 6:5.

[SirDennis]

This thing about conventional wisdom is, it doesn't take context into account. The right behavior in one situation might be the complete opposite of the right behavior in another, but a pithy saying doesn't capture that.

Yes I think (at least I have been lead to understand) we will see that even where their words may be true, it is their use in this context that is unhelpful tending to cruel. Job is looking for mercy but his first friend says "you must have done something to deserve this." What!?! Whether or not that is true, it is far from merciful to say so.

Closer to your point, even if his friends didn't condemn or blame (or accuse) Job, saying something like "always look on the bright side of life" or "don't worry, things will get better" (which is partially what Elifaz says), is the opposite of sympathy or mercy.

Job believes in his integrity, his blamelessness; not that they will earn him something, just that he believes he has done nothing wrong (as we will see in his first and subsequent rebuttals). Essentially his religious friends believe otherwise.

I think Job's friends are being unfairly criticised. I would guess that in their culture, divine interventions would be expected to be a consequence of specific acts. A favourable intervention would be to reward righteousness; an unfavourable intervention a punishment. Job certainly appears to be being punished; what God would punish so absolutely a righteous man? With the evidence before their eyes, the only conclusion Job's friends could possibly reach is that Job has sinned grievously in the eyes of God. Yet even so, they still express love for him. They don't abandon him. As such, they maintain their integrity.

I feel it is unjust to be so critical of their words.

Ghân, I have to admit that I worried that I might be taking a rather dim view of them here, so I thank you for your comment. I'll try to soften it a bit.

They did come to him, and sat with him in silence for 7 days. However, I wonder if we do not see in them the machinations of the Accuser. Or perhaps their EIQ is rather low? The point seems to be (to me) that reason is not always useful, especially when it comes to inexplicable suffering. Not that solace and reason are incompatible, but true sympathy seems to come from somewhere other than the mind.

[Ghân-buri-Ghân]

SirD, I believe our judgement is distorted by our being privy to God's thoughts. We have the advantage of the whole picture; the "wager" between God and his servant, Satan. Job's friends don't. All they have is the evidence of their eyes. Would a just God be so (apparently) unjust, to torture a righteous man? Surely not. Therefore the only conclusion left to them is that Job is a self-deluding sinner... yet they still maintain their love for him.

I find them rather noble.

[axordil]

I would say true sympathy can only come from the mind, from a recognition that, there but for the (extremely loaded term in this context) grace of God go I, from recognizing the similarity I have with any other given person, from acknowledging the bond of shared humanity between us.

Think of what sympathy means in music: when you pluck a string, the string tuned to match vibrates as well, though it has not been touched. Well, with people we have to do that tuning ourselves, or rather, be brought up in a way that encourages our natural ability to do it ourselves.

[vison]

A very nice post, there, axordil.

Well said.