Why is TTT the least liked movie?

[Mrs.Underhill]

Yovargas, I think this thread is better suited for TTT appreciation and that we shouldn't Osgiliate Arwen's thread further. So I moved the poll on LotR movies here, and this poll shows that TTT is liked well enough by a quite significant portion of people:

Here's this poll (translation from Russian):

Which movie of the trilogy you like most of all?

FotR 50 20.75%
TTT 35 14.52%
RoTK 48 19.92%
Can't say, it's all one big movie for me 105 43.57%
Other 3 1.24%
Total: 241 votes 100%

No, we are not outcasts for preferring it.

Now to the topic. I liked TTT most of all because it was, I thought, the best put together movie out of all three, with the biggest character development. And it moved me the most.

I really can't explain why, because I see flaws in this movie, and I agree with folks on this thread pointing them out. But I also see similar or bigger flaws and inconsistencies in FotR and especially RotK, so I think it's the question of which flaws are more irritating for different people.

I didn't like theatrical FotR at all. I was especially disappointed with Frodo who looked like a child and not as a young man, and who had no individuality except reaction to the Ring. I hated Merry and Pip being made into clowns. And don’t even get me started on the reasons for Sam, Merry and Pippin to join Frodo. Ugh.
Then we had badly executed Weathertop fight, Arwen stealing Frodo's thunder, Grumpy!Elrond, stupid Troll and endless crumbling staircase in Moria, overly-dark Lórien and Galadriel's corny mind-speak. And lots of overlong ugly scenes with Saruman's orcs.
And then we had Amon Hen which was a mixed bag of great and awful. And the awful was again about Frodo: they made him see Aragorn and his cousins(!) sacrifice themselves for his mission before his very eyes, and yet Frodo's reactions were left as in the book, where he was only angsting over his choice, and had no idea about the Company being in mortal danger. It left him looking incredibly selfish in the movie, and his last remark to Sam: "Aragorn will look after them" sounded outright derisive. This change still makes me grind my teeth in outrage, and for that reason I can't enjoy otherwise brilliant ending of FotR.

FotR SEE redressed a lot here, especially with giving Frodo and other hobbits more character development, and restoring Lórien to its glory. And fleshing out Aragorn's character.

And I don’t want to even start on RotK, which was such an uneven mix of brilliant and awful, and was much more dragging in the middle than TTT, by the way. When I saw it in theater I even found myself looking at my watch after the 1st hour, which never happened to me with LotR movies before. It wasn’t put together well, had some awful cuts, but the worst part for me was the portrayal of Gondor. Rohirrim were so lucky with PJ, but Gondorians fared badly with him. They were shown mindlessly following the mad ruler, they had to be fooled and tricked into defending themselves, they meekly watched their ruler being beaten and then overthrown by some 3rd party, their defending of the city was overruled by Green Bubbles, and they had no say in the decision of Aragorn and Co to go on the final suicide mission. And no say in accepting Aragorn as their King.
RotK EE added more insult to the misery and actually made a worse movie for me than the theatrical version. It added some horrifying moments of our heroes behaving like thugs, added gratuitous fight scenes and while there were some good additions (Pippin and Faramir, for example), they were outweighed by the bad.

But TTT, especially after FotR, felt like a great improvement on all character development fronts (except Gimli ). I loved the complexity of Frodo-Sam-Gollum relations: it was such a challenge to film that part of the book, as the part before Shelob's lair is really just trudging around. I was impressed with how interesting and gripping they made that part of the story, and how they managed to convey Frodo's internal struggles by externalizing them. Book!Frodo quietly suffering under the Ring would be so difficult to put on screen, but they managed it. Cudos.
And the real discovery was the treatment of Rohan, which was the most boring part of the book for me. And I could never get through Helm's Deep chapter without skipping a lot. But TTT movie made me love and appreciate this part of the story.
Also, I liked how this epic tapestry of different threads was woven together, under the symbol of Estel. That was the main idea of TTT for me: the characters find Estel by the end and brace for the final battle in RotK. But the brilliance of the ending, as I saw it, was the sad irony of Gollum heading down the path of betrayal while everyone else was cheering up. And the hint that the real, the most important, battle is fought in his, and Frodo’s, soul, and that the Ring is still winning. Such a great inverse and a stab in the gut amidst all the celebrations and rousing speeches. And the final shot of Mordor. And the incredible Gollum’s song – which is Frodo’s song as well. Ah. What an excellent, painful ending.

Now to the things that bug me in TTT:
- Most of the Gimli’s verbal jokes.
- Grishnak being made into a buffoon trying to eat hobbits. Overlong scene of him coming after them.
- Merry and Pip still acting like clowns sometimes (thankfully, not as much as in FotR).
- Théoden’s exorsism,
- Overlong Rohan introduction and set up in TTT EE. TTT EE is a mixed bag, and my ideal TTT would be keeping all the hobbits and Faramir EE scenes while dropping the Rohan ones, leaving the best of them (Theodred plot, Éowyn dirge etc.) as DVD extras, but not a part of the movie proper.
- Muddled war logic of Aragorn and Gandalf, urging Théoden to make decisions harmful for Rohan.
- Reluctant Ents having to be fooled by Hobbits.
- Faramir being replaced by Filmamir. Even though I came to appreciate and understand Filmamir, I still miss Faramir.
- Frodo and Sam hiding beneath the cloak in front of Black Gates was silly.
- A tad too many shots of scared Rohan women and children in Helm’s Deep.

So I see flaws, but they don’t bug me that much, I guess, as flaws in FotR and RotK. And it is outweighed by the rest for me.

Now to address the common complaints about TTT:

Dive from the cliff – it’s just a 1-minute distraction, and nothing bad or offensive for our characters happens there. I’m cool about it. And jokes on Arwen-the-horse and Legolas-the-giver-of-EvenStar were PJ-funny.

Elves in Helm’s Deep – brilliant addition, making perfect sense within the context of the movie, playing on the theme of Estel for Elves. It is a replay of the Last Alliance, but this time Elves stand by Isildur’s Heir. Elves bearing a message from Elrond ties in with him fighting in the Last Alliance, and with him reforging Narsil and also coming under Aragorn’s banner, and accepting Arwen’s fate (which will come in RotK).

Galadriel’s recap: same thing as above. Estel for Elves. Reflection on Elves’ fate in ME, and the part they are ready to play in the War of the Ring and in the future of ME (see Arwen).

Arwen’s leaving: externalizing her internal conflict in the book. Also, she symbolically gave her Estel away to Aragorn, in FotR, and was left without (reprised by Elrond in RotK).

Osgiliath. I consider it one of the best moments in the movie, one of the most brilliant additions by PJ (nod to Voronwë). Brilliant portrayal of despair and of falling apart under Dark Lord’s pressure, both for Frodo, and for Gondor’s spirit. Staged against a backdrop of a destroyed city, of the very sky falling on our heroes – great symbolism of what’s going on within our heroes’ souls.

Frodo is *not* giving the Ring to the Nazgûl. Frodo was doing there what he was always doing since the beginning of FotR: he’s spacing out in the proximity of Nazgûl. Closeness of Nazgûl makes the Ring very strong, and it starts overcoming Frodo, the desire to put it on becomes unbearable. Every time it happened before Sam had to interfere to stop Frodo. Same thing here: Frodo and Sam actions are totally consistent within the movie context. But here it is especially bad because it’s close to Mordor, and Nazgûl here are much stronger. We have here the finest acting by EW, and scene itself is incredibly powerful in conveying the unbearable burden of the Ring. And note how after Sam interferes, Frodo comes back to his senses. *By himself*. Contrast it with Sméagol fighting Déagol. And yes – with Boromir fighting Frodo in the end of FotR. Those guys couldn’t stop by themselves. Frodo could. As he’ll stop himself in RotK, with Gollum after Shelob’s Lair.

And now we come to the burning question of why Filmamir lets Frodo go after seeing this spectacle with Nazgûl. And the answer is very simple: see above. Filmamir looks at Frodo overcome by the Ring, and sees Boromir. And finally understands what the Ring has done to his beloved brother. Frodo provides the handy illustration. Boromir swore himself to the mission but because of the Ring he betrayed the mission and attacked his comrade. That’s what Frodo almost does here - *almost*, because unlike Boromir, he overcomes it, with help of Sam, while still under the Ring. “The Ring drove your brother mad” – shouts Sam, and the next frame is Frodo going mad. And what happens next makes Sam’s words sink in to Filmamir.
He understands that the Ring is truly terrible. He’s horrified by his brother’s fate. He’s ready to risk his life to prevent this happening with his father, with people of Gondor. And, listening to Sam’s speech, he regains his own Estel, and sees that the hobbits mission, while looking impossible, is the only hope left to get rid of this Evil.
Filmamir makes his decision not because he believes in Gandalf and in doing right things more than he believes in the absolute priority of Gondor interests. He makes it out of love for his brother and father, and of Gondor. Still noble, but I still prefer Book!Faramir. And we are shown limitations of Filmamir, in his cruel treatment of Gollum, in failing to convey that Gollum should be thankful to Frodo for saving his life. And cruelty of Filmamir, instead of rudeness of Sam, becomes Gollum’s breaking point. Sad, but consistent with Filmamir portrayal. Sigh.

[Crucifer]

I thought TTT was the most emotionally loaded film too, but there were moments that jarred: Gimli throughout the thing, the whole skateboardy business, ents running and so on. They annoyed me and took me out of it quite a bit. FoTR was serious pretty much all the way through, as was RotK, so that might be why people don't like TTT so much...

ETA: Only just saw the TTT thread... sorry...
Feel free to move this post. [Done - VtF]

[Túrin Turambar]

I watched the three films again last week, and I think I’ve hit on an answer to this question.

Jackson and his co-writers do a brilliant job of turning the very unwieldy and even somewhat inconsistent Book I into a successful first half of FOTR. The story as the movie tells it is, if anything, faster and more dramatic than in the book.

But, bizarrely, they do the opposite with Book III. It is IMHO the most cinematic and tightly-plotted of the six books, and events move rapidly. Yet the film drags the plot out – from the point at which Théoden is healed, the characters dither, they delay, they bicker, they trudge across Rohan and then dither and bicker some more. I read a critical review of TTT at the time it was released which described it as endless scenes of long-haired types riding around on horses, which I think is at least partly accurate. The film begins and ends strongly, but the middle sags.

I agree with yov that RotK is the most uneven. Part of that is the book’s fault – it’s the weakest of the books in my opinion, and could do with the harshest and most revisionist adaptation. If anything, I think that the writers were possibly too purist in adapting it. Still, the final film holds up better than TTT in my view, and both book and film do very well not to disappoint at the end.

[Pearly Di]

Jackson and his co-writers do a brilliant job of turning the very unwieldy and even somewhat inconsistent Book I into a successful first half of FOTR. The story as the movie tells it is, if anything, faster and more dramatic than in the book.

Totally agree. I still think that FotR the Movie has the best linear narrative out of all the films.

I read a critical review of TTT at the time it was released which described it as endless scenes of long-haired types riding around on horses, which I think is at least partly accurate. The film begins and ends strongly, but the middle sags.

Helm's Deep is too long. I love it but it is just too long.

I agree with yov that RotK is the most uneven. Part of that is the book’s fault – it’s the weakest of the books in my opinion, and could do with the harshest and most revisionist adaptation. If anything, I think that the writers were possibly too purist in adapting it.

Too purist? Yes, very possibly.

I feel that RotK, much as I love it, almost over-eggs the pudding. You've got THREE big battles, for pete's sake ... the Orcs' attack at Osgiliath, then the Battle of Pelennor Fields, which then pretty much divides into two battles with 1) the attack by the Rohirrim and the rout of the Orcs and then 2) the coming of the Easterlings on the Mumak. And finally, the Battle at the Black Gate (with lots of unnecessary trolls!)

I like the Orc attack at Osgiliath, a lot, but the film didn't really need it. It would have been better, perhaps, to showcase the two other battles more (which actually happen in the book ) as emotional climaxes.

I think many of us are uncritical because PJ gave us Middle-earth in spades and so, you know, who's complaining about that. And, at the end of the day, 13 Oscars ... ... says it all.

Always interesting to speculate how it could have been done differently though!

[Túrin Turambar]

I like the Orc attack at Osgiliath, a lot, but the film didn't really need it. It would have been better, perhaps, to showcase the two other battles more (which actually happen in the book ) as emotional climaxes.

I would actually be inclined to be even more revisionist – combine the final two battles into one and get rid of the army of the dead. I think that, plot-wise, the three biggest flaws with Tolkien’s RotK is that 1) Mordor’s army is played up as being undefeatable (hence the need to destroy the ring) and is then promptly defeated, 2) the army of the dead is a deus ex machina (and even more so in the film) and 3) the book’s dramatic build-up towards the finale is interrupted by the victory at the Pelennor and the subsequent scenes in the Houses of Healing, the last council and the march to the Black Gate.

The beauty of the battle at Osgilliath is that it lets the audience clearly follow the course of events (we see the Orc army leave Mordor, cross the river, march onto the Pelennor, etc) and at the same time it builds up suspense by letting us see the Orcs actually win a battle. That’s a decent achievement for a fairly short sequence.

[yovargas]

I read a critical review of TTT at the time it was released which described it as endless scenes of long-haired types riding around on horses

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[Pearly Di]

I would actually be inclined to be even more revisionist – combine the final two battles into one and get rid of the army of the dead.

For the film treatment, I think you have a point.

I think that, plot-wise, the three biggest flaws with Tolkien’s RotK is that 1) Mordor’s army is played up as being undefeatable (hence the need to destroy the ring) and is then promptly defeated,

Ah, now, see, I can explain this! The army of Mordor is defeated because the Ring goes into the fire, thus breaking the link between Sauron and his army. So once the Ring is destroyed, it's like the strings are cut between the Puppetmaster and his puppets. And because of that, the Captains of the West can rout 'em. It all makes perfect sense!

2) the army of the dead is a deus ex machina (and even more so in the film)

Coolest deus ex machina ever though! And the Eagles.

and 3) the book’s dramatic build-up towards the finale is interrupted by the victory at the Pelennor and the subsequent scenes in the Houses of Healing, the last council and the march to the Black Gate.

I don't find it so. The book's huge emotional climax for me is the Mount Doom chapter. I read that with my heart in my mouth.

I'm not just being an uncritical Tolkien fangirl here . Well, OK, I am. I wouldn't change any of the above.

However, we are considering how this translates to screen, of course.

The beauty of the battle at Osgilliath is that it lets the audience clearly follow the course of events (we see the Orc army leave Mordor, cross the river, march onto the Pelennor, etc) and at the same time it builds up suspense by letting us see the Orcs actually win a battle. That’s a decent achievement for a fairly short sequence.

I agree.

[sauronsfinger]

from PearlyDi

I think many of us are uncritical because PJ gave us Middle-earth in spades and so, you know, who's complaining about that. And, at the end of the day, 13 Oscars ... ... says it all.

I agree - but just for the record, there were 17 Oscars in all
FOTR 4
TTT 2
ROTK 11

I do not have a least favorite of the three.

[Pearly Di]

Forgot this ...

I read a critical review of TTT at the time it was released which described it as endless scenes of long-haired types riding around on horses

You say that like it's a bad thing.

sf, funny, I always forget there were in fact 17. How cool is that.

[solicitr]

I think FR unquestionably is the best of the lot for several reasons: the tautest, least-distorted script, generally the best acting, and the fewest cringeworthy throw-stuff-at-the-screen moments. It certainly ain't perfect: Nuclear Galadriel, too much Cave Troll at the expense of Lórien and the absurd 'encircled by goblins' bit, the Shouting Match of Elrond, and of course Teen Idol Frodo. (I actually never cringed over AATF).

Stll, these boners are pretty minor compared to the other two films, where PJ's 'adaptation' in places descends to outright vandalism- despite a few good 'moments' like the Ride of the Rohirrim or Éowyn's exchange with Wormtongue.

[Pearly Di]

(I actually never cringed over AATF).

I like the way Arwen raises the River but dislike how Frodo is treated in that scene, like a floppy ragdoll. I really mind PJ stealing Frodo's heroic moments from him! And I do cringe when Arwen blubs over Frodo as well.

That said, there are far too many good sequences in all three films for me to dismiss PJ's treatment as vandalism.

[River]

Elves at Helm's Deep.
Frodo at Osgiliath
Treebeard having a tantrum on seeing the devastation to his forest.
Aragorn's resurrection

I hate the whole "He's dead, we saw him fall...oh wait, he's still alive!" plot device. I barely forgave Tolkien and he only did it once. PJ did it twice. That and what they did to Aragorn's character arc, Faramir, and Aragorn and Arwen almost ruined the movies for me.

[vison]

Elves at Helm's Deep.
Frodo at Osgiliath
Treebeard having a tantrum on seeing the devastation to his forest.
Aragorn's resurrection

I hate the whole "He's dead, we saw him fall...oh wait, he's still alive!" plot device. I barely forgave Tolkien and he only did it once. PJ did it twice. That and what they did to Aragorn's character arc, Faramir, and Aragorn and Arwen almost ruined the movies for me.

Amen.

[sauronsfinger]

I too felt that there was no reason for Frodo in Osgiliath or Aragorns supposed death although it did give us that sweeping panaromic look at Helms Deep and allowed Aragorn to see the approaching Uruk army which were both terrific shots. The Elves at Helms Deep were an inspired moment that added to the entire sequence a great deal for me. In a film, several events, locations or characters are often combined as one. Elves did fight the armies of Sauron elsewhere in the War of the Ring. This was simply a time honored cinematic device to combine the two events.

and... it worked to help make the film a success for the audinece that paid to see it. Remember, the box office for each film grew larger. Evidently the people greatly liked what they saw and kept coming back for more.

[River]

Except at the time the Elves weren't supposed to have enough strength to do more than defend their own borders, never mind send reinforcements to a human kingdom that thought their leaders were sinister and evil.

[sauronsfinger]

Yes, I get that River. But I think that is examining too close by the standards of the book. This is a film. Two different things. The Elves did engage the forces of Sauron in battle during the War of the Ring. This was Jacksons way of getting some of that in the film without having to create all that would go with shifting the location. This is a very common device used in making films.

I realize that my opinion may be different than many here and on other Tolkien sites but I simply accept going in that a book is one thing and a film is quite another thing and I do not hold the mirror of the first up to judge the reflection of the second.

When I heard the films were being made, I put a stop to my almost annual rereading of the book. I did not want to have the text in my head as I watched the films. As the three films were released over the two year period, I stayed away from the books unless I wanted to look up something very specific that I had alread seen in a released film. I did NOT want to be sitting in a theater distracted by the book.

But thats just me.

[Pearly Di]

I liked the Elves at Helm's Deep. It was very Silmarillion-ish, which is why I liked it so much.

Frodo at Osgiliath caused me much pain on first viewing. It got better with time.

I hate Frodo sending Sam away in RotK more though.

Aragorn's 'pretend death' in TTT ... meh, but I was compensated by Éowyn's expression as he rode away.

I realize that my opinion may be different than many here and on other Tolkien sites but I simply accept going in that a book is one thing and a film is quite another thing and I do not hold the mirror of the first up to judge the reflection of the second.

Not at all, I'd say yours was a pretty representative approach of the fandom. My own experience of the fandom is that most Tolkienistas like the films. I think a lot of people separate the films from the books because we know that no film could ever really do LotR justice!

Although some things in the films make me go , I really love them overall.

[Primula Baggins]

I would have to call myself a Pearly Di-ist where the films are concerned. There are bits I wish had been done differently, some of them important; but all in all, I am so glad we have them.

[Holbytla]

Well...nah I beat this horse dead enough.
PJ has at least saved me from spending rollercoaster money.
Whenever I feel the need for a rollercoaster I just pop in a movie.
Especially if I feel the need to take a long fast plunge.

[Pearly Di]

I would have to call myself a Pearly Di-ist where the films are concerned.