If Arwen had been cut from the films

[vison]

Yeah, I think you saw another RotK. At least that scene. Because I just love it.

But then you hate it, and we're neither of us idiots, and furthermore we get along just fine.

Boy! Life is complicated!

Oh, isn't it!!!

I know that many perfectly respectable people differ with me on the films, but being a tolerant and patient woman, I bide my time and know that one day - one day sooner if not later - my opinion will be universal.

No, really, the movies were so pretty, and there were so many good bits, that I can more or less ignore the rest. Although, I haven't watched them all the way through yet, since I bought the EE's. Bits and pieces.

[Holbytla]

Oh sure Prim. You never say things like that to me when I prove you wrong.

I didn't mind too much the presentation. A little overly mushy but I wasn't bothered by it. What I noticed on Sunday when I caught that part on TV, was how Viggo nearly swallowed her whole with that kiss. I mean his mouth was wide open.

Liv has those big beautiful lips and all that she got from he daddy, but Viggo made them all but disappear.
Poor Liv.

[WampusCat]

Oh yeah. Poor Liv. I would have sacrificed and been her stand-in if I had realized it was such a burden. That's me: a woman for others.

[Primula Baggins]

Yes, it's indeed a sacrifice, but sometimes one must simply take a deep breath and deal with it.

And Holby . . . dear . . . when exactly was it that you proved me wrong? Because as far back as I look into the mists of antiquity, I can find no such occasion.

[Holbytla]

That's because you are all wet from being in denial.
Get it? Da Nile?

[Primula Baggins]

<pat pat pat>

Yes, I get it, Holby dear.

<thuh-WACCCKKKKK!>

Moving along to something more elevating: I also found that the presence of Arwen at the departure of the Fellowship gave a depth to the moment that just seeing Aragorn bowed down in silent grief (for something or someone we knew nothing about) would not have. In the book when I first read it, I thought, hmmmm, and I did connect it with Elrond's daughter at the feast—but only because I was the kind of incurable romantic one can only be at 10 or 12 years old. I liked remote mysterious men; Spock was pretty powerful for me.

But these days I like men who actually admit that they feel things, or at the very least, with a literary character, I like understanding why he feels things, even if no one else is clued in. Arwen clued me in.

[Holbytla]

Visual devices are always subject to interpretaion but sometimes they are pretty clear. If used correctly they can be display meaning more effectively than words. Generally with me if I have to think too long or scratch my head I see them as at least somewhat ineffective.
There is a fine line between vague and obvious that should be the ultimate goal.

The scene back in the Shire with the giant gourd is imo PJ's best use of that device.

[Athrabeth]

Oh yeah. Poor Liv. I would have sacrificed and been her stand-in if I had realized it was such a burden. That's me: a woman for others.

Wampus, you are such a hero.

But something tells me that you'd have to thumb-wrestle Sass to determine who'd have to sacrifice their lips for poor Liv.

And I hear that Sass has exceptionally strong thumbs.

[Primula Baggins]

The scene back in the Shire with the giant gourd is imo PJ's best use of that device.

Thank you for pointing that out. I think that's a wonderful use of visual shorthand and conveys what it would take pages of prose to get across. It's a wonderful, wistful moment in the film, and it plants the seed for the Grey Havens.

Completely incompetent writers could not have written that.

[Holbytla]

The scene back in the Shire with the giant gourd is imo PJ's best use of that device.

Thank you for pointing that out. I think that's a wonderful use of visual shorthand and conveys what it would take pages of prose to get across. It's a wonderful, wistful moment in the film, and it plants the seed for the Grey Havens.

Completely incompetent writers could not have written that.

Lol they didn't write a word of dialogue.
See how good they can be when they just shut up?

[Primula Baggins]

Holby. . . .

I hate to tell you this, but screenwriters write the action, too. Not the camera angles, but "here's what happens."

So they did indeed write that scene. It was not invented by the cameraman.

[Holbytla]

I specifically and intentionally used the word dialogue in my previous post.
I am well aware they had to use words to convey the scene within the script. I will however give PJ credit for his direction in that scene, as well as the actors. That may have been Pippin's best moment on screen.

[yovargas]

Even better than the scene after he eats four pieces of lembas!?

[Teremia]

vison, I also loved Aragorn's singing at the coronation! It catches me by surprise every time; I'm thinking, "OK, yeah, here's where we get our StarWarsesque pomp and circumstance," and kind of stop paying attention, and then he starts singing and the petals drift about -- and I stop dead in my tracks and swoon.

Heck, I liked the scene where Arwen sees the reproachful face of her future child and turns around! Even though it makes absolutely NO SENSE in the general scheme of things (of course she would never go to the Havens! that's a no-brainer!). But something about it moves me. Even though there's a hiccup in the DVD just at the moment the child enters the dream-set -- his little feet freeze for a moment.

Again, it might be the music.

The music is often to blame for the scenes I love.

[Athrabeth]

Heck, I liked the scene where Arwen sees the reproachful face of her future child and turns around! Even though it makes absolutely NO SENSE in the general scheme of things (of course she would never go to the Havens! that's a no-brainer!).

I think it that scene is absolutely wonderful. In the book, Arwen loses hope, and despairs at Aragorn's death, lamenting that there is no ship that can now take her West. In the movies, Arwen feels this despair before Aragorn's death, through Elrond's foretelling. Her vision of the possibility of their future child, for me, is is so powerful because it's at that moment that Arwen unequivocally accepts death as her shared doom with Aragorn and returns to face her freely chosen future.

I'm tellin' ya......movie Arwen (pre-ALINTTTFOTR) is central to deeper themes than pretty much everyone else.

And the music is .

[Ellienor]

Ath,
Thank you for the reminder of that scene with Arwen in TTT and her preview of her fate..... The scene with her future child also really struck me as well. That grounded it in reality for me.....perhaps I'm a cynic, but accepting death for a few years with some dude--makes less sense to me.

Although, come to think of it, that dude was Viggo, but still.....

About that kissing scene with Arwen---surely there was some other way to convey Aragorn's happiness---that kiss blew me right out of the movie. Too modern!

[Holbytla]

That was no kiss honey. That was something out of the Dawn of the Dead.


As for the whole living for eternity, loving for a while thing I dunno. I can see Arwen's side of it. If you really think about it, do you really want to live forever? Honestly after 10,000 years of sitting on daddy's lap, listening to his tales of yore I would think it could get a bit boring.

[Primula Baggins]

Me, too, to tell you the truth. At least, it's a bump for me. I'd have liked a kiss that looked more . . . courtly, I guess is the word. The mad happiness in their faces would tell the rest of the story.

[Sassafras]

Ah well, I'm indifferent to the kiss. No, really, I am although I don't think it necessarily smacks of modern sensibilities. Elves, in the Third Age, even muted Elves still were (I like to believe) capable of passion for all sorts of things .... including romantic love.

As for Arwen's pre-cognition ..... sad to say, that while admittedly visually beautiful, I don't really like the symbolism of it. In fact I don't like the entire 'Arwen is leaving Middle Earth' story line at all.

Ack! I feel an attack of purism coming on!

It must be because I'm reading the book again, and yes, while there are (some few) flaws ..... the films really pale by comparison. Not fair to compare two different mediums, I know,

but there it is ..........

[Athrabeth]

As for Arwen's pre-cognition ..... sad to say, that while admittedly visually beautiful, I don't really like the symbolism of it. In fact I don't like the entire 'Arwen is leaving Middle Earth' story line at all.

How do you interpret the symbolism of the scene, Sass?