All Talked Out - Debates Over - Who Won?

Post by **Ellienor** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:27 pm

It's really hard for me to watch these debates objectively because I am quite anti-McCain at this point. However, I am left with the overall impression of McCain just punching and punching at thin air. Obama just stood aside for the most part and let the punching go.

I think McCain connected some glancing blows particularly in the early part of the debate. I think bringing up Joe was a genius move because it allowed McCain to appeal to that kind of voter and paint Obama as a "wealth distributor." I got the sense Obama was surprised that Joe got brought up. But McCain was caught flat footed when Obama flatly stated that Joe would not get fined because there is an exemption for small business to provide health benefits to workers.

I think the point about raising taxes and Hoover and the depression was a good one, and I hope the Democrats think this issue over and bring in some good old fashioned wonky eggheads that have studied the Depression to consider it. But Hoover/Mellon did so many things wrong, and wrongly assumed that there was a natural "bottom" to the economy--hint--there is no natural "bottom" to an economy, it can fall very very far without the help of government--that I'm pretty skeptical that it was the taxes that started the Depression.

But I think McCain just looked angry and upset. I was thinking, I so do not want that guy sitting down for high level talks with a country leader that he doesn't like, say, for example, Putin. Obama is a pretty cool customer and at least doesn't seem to get offended, but I would think just about anybody else sitting across the table from McCain would have to get pretty belligerent in return.

Post by **Padme** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:30 pm

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:Did anyone else notice that McCain wore a blue tie, while Obama wore a red one?

Yes. I was

thinking they got their ties mixed up.

Post by **Ellienor** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:32 pm

But the potential first ladies' dresses were Cindy=fire engine red and Michelle=cool blue.

Post by **Padme** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:37 pm

Cerin wrote:I think the sleeper segment of the debate may have been the comments related to abortion, in concert with McCain's apparent conflating of autism with Down's Syndrome. He disdainfully dismissed women's health related to abortion as being a matter of no concern to him; and then in comments directly relating to autism, he solemnly observed that Palin understands that challenge more than most. Now it may be that he was meaning to say that Palin understands the challenges of having a special needs child, but he was missing a segue and it came across that he either thought Palin's child has autism rather than Down's Syndrome, or that he regards them as basically the same. I'm thinking that these two comments may significantly alienate women (except single-issue anti-choice voters).

I was also struck by the juxtaposition of McCain's pledge to freeze spending with his tender-hearted references to the need to improve various programs (one being programs for special needs children). I notice Obama took the opportunity once to point out that if you want to improve programs, you have to be willing to fund them.

I have a friend who has two autistic daughters, she is

beyond angry with the tone set by McCain and Palin. She has rightfully pointed out that Palin has yet to deal with the bigger issues of a special needs child as her child is still a baby. She has said Palin will never know what it's like to fight tooth and nail for schooling for her child, because she has money and can send her son to private schools. She also has said that most parents she knows with special needs children are scared of the McCain/Palin ticket because Palin is using her son as a political card which makes most of them livid. She called me last night after the debate and was

about McCain. And before anyone says she's a hard core liberal...She's a Mormon in Utah.

Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:37 pm

I think it was a subtle way of suggesting that they would be bipartisan.

Or maybe it was a completely coincidence.

Post by **Mrs.Underhill** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:15 pm

If someone wants a good laugh, a caption contest here!
Warning: unflattering tongue-flicking picture of McCain from the last debate:
http://www.debatableland.com/the_debata ... -lies.html

Post by **Cerin** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:22 pm

That must be from the end of the debate, when McCain started going around the table the wrong way.

Post by **yovargas** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:03 pm

Sorry but that's damn funny.

Post by **vison** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:09 pm

yovargas wrote:Sorry but that's damn funny.

In a long-ago Canadian election the Conservative Robert Stanfield fumbled a football. It doesn't matter that he had been tossing the football around with a bunch of Air Force guys for 15 minutes before the infamous photo- because the infamous photo showed him fumbling the football with a goofy look on his face. Many people think it cost him the election.

The thing about Mr. McCain is, he keeps on doing it. Over and over. He keeps making weird faces and doing weird stuff and it creeps people out. That might not be fair. Well, no, it isn't "fair'. But the man's looks and inept actions do affect how people see him. And there, right beside him is a tall, young, handsome and graceful man who seems never to put a foot wrong.

It isn't fair. But that's the way this cookie crumbles.

Post by **Maria** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:24 pm

You keep saying Obama is handsome, vison, but I just don't see it.

But then, I think most people with really large mouths look weird (like Julia Roberts and Mick Jagger.)

Post by **Padme** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:38 pm

Maria wrote:You keep saying Obama is handsome, vison, but I just don't see it. But then, I think most people with really large mouths look weird (like Julia Roberts and Mick Jagger.)

I do.

Post by **River** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:40 pm

yovargas wrote:Sorry but that's damn funny.

I think it would be even funnier next to the pic LM posted, where it looks like Obama's going in for kiss and McCain's recoiling...

I smell a weekend procrastination project.

Post by **Padme** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:47 pm

yovargas wrote:Sorry but that's damn funny.

This picture needs to be in the picture captioning thread....I already have three.

Post by **vison** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:55 pm

Maria wrote:You keep saying Obama is handsome, vison, but I just don't see it. But then, I think most people with really large mouths look weird (like Julia Roberts and Mick Jagger.)

Does he have a "large" mouth? I can't say I noticed. He has a pleasantly handsome face. He's not "beautiful". His looks are appealing to me, but it is a combination of his appearance and his demeanor, rather than his looks alone. He moves well, which is attractive. And being tall is an asset, no denying that. I think half the reason Mr. McCain won't spend any time shaking hands with Obama or even being near him is that Obama towers over him.

A friend of mine went to hear Bill Clinton speak when he was in Vancouver. She got his autograph and shook hands with him. She said that when his eyes met hers, she suddenly understood it all. She said it was an overpowering connection - and it lasted only seconds. Mr. Clinton is, IMHO, a pretty handsome guy and he's much handsomer now than he was 10 years ago. OTOH, some people believe his mental state or equilibrium was affected by his heart troubles and surgery.

Post by **sauronsfinger** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:53 pm

http://www.buzzflash.com/

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/ ... /77/632515

One of the interesting stories emerging from last nights debate is the man known as Joe the Plumber. Many sites are scurrying today to find out all they can discover about the man. Two such links are provided for you.

It now appears that Joe the Plumber
1- is not named Joe
2- may not actually be a plumber
3- misrepresented his monetary situation to Obama to put himself in a tax bracket which is clearly out of his league
4- owes back taxes to the government
5- is known as something of a rightwing idealogue with an affinity for the Natural Law Party
6- would benefit more from the tax and business plans of Obama than those of McCain

Very interesting.

Post by **Inanna** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:01 pm

Did anyone notice when McCain rolled his eyes at Obama? I couldn't believe it.

We (part of the Ph.D. gang) had a drinking game last night with the debate. Unfortunately we had "empty the glass" on "Random voter's name is brought up"... we pretty much emptied a full glass for Joe the plumber. We changed the rules for repetitions, pretty quickly.

Post by **Maria** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:05 pm

I thought both candidates hands looked wimpy. Obviously, neither of them has ever done much with their hands.

Post by **sauronsfinger** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:16 pm

The best pundit line on the debate comes from Arianna Huffington. Writing about the split screen used for most of the event, she says

It was like watching a split-screen double feature -- GRUMPY OLD MEN playing side by side with COOL HAND LUKE.

Post by **Ellienor** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:19 pm

Yeah, I feel for "Joe" the "plumber." I mean, the poor guy happened to be home one day and Obama happened to stop by, and now he's getting the kind of scrutiny formerly reserved for celebrities and politicians.

I mean, Sarah Palin didn't benefit from this intense scrutiny, and I don't think ol' "Joe" is going to, either.

Post by **WampusCat** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:14 pm

Here's a good summary of the Joe the Plumber stories.