Where was Gollum captured and tortured?
Where was Gollum captured and tortured?
Just reading some info on an expansion for Lord of the Rings Online: Siege of Mirkwood. Its stated there that Gollum was captured and tortured in Dol Guldor. I'm just wondering if this has any basis in canon, or if its just a game mechanic. I always thought Gollum was captured near Mordor and tortured in Barad-dûr.
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End
- Voronwë the Faithful
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True, but presumably there were still some of his worthies hanging out there waiting to re-occupy the place under Khamul's leadership. Still, there is no question that Gollum was caught by Aragorn on the outskirts of Mordor. As it says in Appendix B:
And from the Council of Elrond:3017 Gollum is released from Mordor. He is taken by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes, and brought to Thranduil in Mirkwood.
`There is little need to tell of them,' said Aragorn. `If a man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have. I, too, despaired at last, and I began my homeward journey. And then, by fortune, I came suddenly on what I sought: the marks of soft feet beside a muddy pool. But now the trail was fresh and swift, and it led not to Mordor but away. Along the skirts of the Dead Marshes I followed it, and then I had him. Lurking by a stagnant mere, peering in the water as the dark eve fell, I caught him, Gollum.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Isn't it Gollum who says something about "four fingers only he has on the Black Hand, but they are enough"? Or something to that effect—I don't have chapter and verse. His emotional reaction (closes eyes and shudders?) is intense enough that it made me think Gollum had actually been in the presence of Sauron.
I may, by the way, be completely loopy.
I may, by the way, be completely loopy.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Yes, as both soli and Prim have indicated, I think that it is abundantly clear that Gollum was personally questioned by Sauron himself.
From "The Black Gate is Closes":
Ax, did you miss the news that there are now seachable e-texts of LOTR and other Tolkien works available for the Kindle and other formats?
From "The Black Gate is Closes":
Back to Al's original question, I realized he meant "captured by Sauron" not "captured by Aragorn." But he is still correct. From Appendix B:`That would be Minas Ithil that Isildur the son of Elendil built ' said Frodo. `It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy.'
`Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering. 'And He hated Isildur's city.'
3009 Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years, searching in the vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor. At some time during these years Gollum himself ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron.
Ax, did you miss the news that there are now seachable e-texts of LOTR and other Tolkien works available for the Kindle and other formats?
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Anyone who's closely read Hammond and Scull's The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion since that work appeared late in 2005. It has been <argued> that this is one catch-and-release too many, fortunately absent from the text Tolkien actually published.solicitr wrote:Now- how many knew that Gollum was captured and questioned by Uglúk outside Lórien?
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As usual, I disagree with Squire. There is no inherent reason why Gollum being captured by the Orcs and then escaping (not released) doesn't make sense simply because he also was captured and escaped (or was released) by both Sauron and Aragorn/Gandalf/Woodelves. In fact, I think that it makes a fair amount of sense. But then, I'm not nearly as inclined to be critical as Squire is.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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No, definitely not missing something. I just wasn't sure what part of the discussion you were reponding to. Now it is clear.WampusCat wrote:Well, Cirith Ungol is on the way out of Mordor, not Dol Guldur. Or am I missing something?
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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The part of this affair that puzzles me is "and enough is said to make Uglúk certain that Ring was with the Company", and "Uglúk sends news to Isengard of Hobbits; but not of the Ring". So Ugluk knows about the Ring? Did Saruman tell him? And whereas here he treacherously keeps this crucial tidbit for himself, after he captures M&P he's all for following orders without apparently the least thought of searching for or grabbing It? It's confusing.
It's all the more confusing because Tolkien "backwrote" this story long, long after he had finished Books II and III.
It's all the more confusing because Tolkien "backwrote" this story long, long after he had finished Books II and III.
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I can't imagine keeping all the constantly shifting details straight in a story this size, with no access to computers. I don't think one can expect everything to mesh perfectly. And I'd guess that sometimes it's late changes that introduce the problem, not what's been there all along.
Tolkien certainly had ideas for changes that he started to execute and didn't carry through completely, not because he wasn't careful but because there was (I'd guess) just too much to keep track of. Especially in the days before searchable text! <shudder>
Tolkien certainly had ideas for changes that he started to execute and didn't carry through completely, not because he wasn't careful but because there was (I'd guess) just too much to keep track of. Especially in the days before searchable text! <shudder>
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Well, Tolkien's 'neolithic' technique was simply to rule off pages in a grid, with columns for each of his many groups of characters and their day-by-day movements. And, yes, he did this because he had made something of a chronological muddle of things. He went through about a half-dozen rejected pages of the crucial week leading up to the Pelennor.
But all the time-and-distance issues don't seem to explain why at a very late date (summer 1946, most likely) he conceived or maintained the idea that Saruman would have entrusted the most sensitive bit of intelligence in Middle-earth to an Orc!
But all the time-and-distance issues don't seem to explain why at a very late date (summer 1946, most likely) he conceived or maintained the idea that Saruman would have entrusted the most sensitive bit of intelligence in Middle-earth to an Orc!