Catching Up to the Sil Discussion: Chapter 9

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.

The Valar had no power to alter the Tale is it was "written" by Eru. Whatever motivation they were acting under, be it love or selfishness, they could not but help in doing what they did. The Summons, and all the Suffering that came with it, all were themes in the music that had their uttermost source in Eru.

As quite a different prophet, Bob Marley, said:

We've got to fulfill the book

[Sassafras]

Erm, I think I've been making the same point for the past 18-19 months or so or however long it's been since we started the discussion on TORC

[axordil]

I think one of the reasons the Valar at least appeared to have messed up as often as they did was that they didn't really GET evil. But then how could they?

I always think of the Music of the Ainur as being sort of like the opening of the fourth movement of Beethoven's Ninth. A theme, Melkor's rejoinder, another theme, another rejoinder, a third theme, and the rejoinder becomes part of it...and the theme could not have been unless the rejoinder had existed. That's why I am dubious about "mistakes" and "wrong" being applied to something that was, in the context, predestined by Eru. Individuals can and do (in the Sil) make what seem like missteps...but they HAVE to, or the music isn't as beautiful, as deep, as sorrowful, as glorious.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Well said (again), Ax.

(Have I mentioned recently how happy I am that you are here?)

I think one of the reasons the Valar at least appeared to have messed up as often as they did was that they didn't really GET evil.

Particularly Manwë, as I have said before. But that discussion should probably wait until Chapter 6.

[axordil]

I'll wait. And you know, considering how long it's been at this point since I've read the books, I'm having way too much fun pontificating about them. Thanks.

[Cerin]

No theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.

The Valar had no power to alter the Tale is it was "written" by Eru. Whatever motivation they were acting under, be it love or selfishness, they could not but help in doing what they did. The Summons, and all the Suffering that came with it, all were themes in the music that had their uttermost source in Eru.

That would mean that there is no free will at all in the World Ilúvatar created. Everyone is just a puppet, from Melkor on down to Frodo. That would make Ilúvatar the ultimate Melkor -- a master of all wills. I don't think I'd continue reading if I thought that is what was being said.

To 'not alter' is not the same as to 'not alter in my despite'. That would mean, none can alter the music in defiance of me, in contempt of me, in a way that harms me. The music was altered, but here is the rest of that quote:

'For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Yes, Melkor altered the music, and he constantly altered the working after the World came into Being. But in so doing, he just provided more ways for Ilúvatar to show forth his works; as in the frost and steam by which Melkor's cold and heat manifested.

Now consider this, if you will:

(Speaking of the music to be made after the end of days) Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

From this we can infer that the process described there is not what took place during Ainulindalë. The themes were not played aright, they were not taking Being in the moment of their utterance, Ilúvatar had not given to the Ainur's thoughts the secret fire. What was this singing not done aright, not given Being in the moment of utterance, representing thoughts not kindled with the secret fire?

The singing was the sound of something, after which the Ainur were given sight of it -- the vision of the World. But when they sang it and saw it, it did not yet exist. It had not been brought into Being. When the Ainur sang, I think they did not know the manifested meaning of the music they sang. That is, I don't think that at that point Ulmo knew water as water; Melkor didn't understand his rage and resentment as fire and ice. But after seeing the vision, they know. They know what they are about, they know what they are making. So what was the thing they saw, in relation to what they encountered when Ilúvatar brought the vision into Being and they descended into a dark, unmade world?

What was the purpose of the singing? Wasn't it to learn the mind of Ilúvatar, to come to know the aspects of Ilúvatar that each of the other Ainur understood, to learn to sing in harmony, to apprehend the theme, that is, the nature of the habitation he wished them to make? Wasn't the singing the learning how and what to make of the dark, empty world they found themselves in?

But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Yet it is told among the Eldar that the Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepae it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed and Melkor spilled them; and naught might have peace or come to lasting growth, for as surely as the Valar began a labour so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it. And yet their labour was not all in vain; and though nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled, and all things were in hue and shape other than the Valar had at first intended, slowly nonetheless the Earth was fashioned and made firm. And thus was the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars.

Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein.

Again, to foreknow is not to pre-ordain. The greatest evil in Tolkien is the desire to master the will of others. Therefore I do not buy the idea of Eru as grand puppetmaster. I submit that though Eru foreknew all that would transpire, he did not pre-ordain it. It was done through the choices that were made -- of the Valar, of Melkor, and of the Children of Ilúvatar. That includes the choice to summon the Children to Valinor.

Story. Sticking to it.

I always think of the Music of the Ainur as being sort of like the opening of the fourth movement of Beethoven's Ninth. A theme, Melkor's rejoinder, another theme, another rejoinder, a third theme, and the rejoinder becomes part of it...and the theme could not have been unless the rejoinder had existed. That's why I am dubious about "mistakes" and "wrong" being applied to something that was, in the context, predestined by Eru.

It was foreknown, and yes, all was turned to greater beauty by Eru, but it was not pre-destined. The Ainur were given freedom to embellish the theme according to their own thought and power, they were given the imperishable flame in the heart of the world to achieve what had been sung.

I don't know where this idea of pre-destination comes from, but I believe it is incorrect.

[Alatar]

Please, please, please lets not get into the Free Will and predestination thing again. There's a reason why we have taken 2 years to get this far in discussing the Silmarillion and that reason is the "free will" discussions. It has osgiliated every chapter, every point and every opinion.

Can't we just take it at face value and move on? Start a new Free Will thread or split every post that mentions it into oblivion. In the future, when posts are split or moved we can refer to them as "predestined posts". It can be a self fulfilling prophecy. By making a post that mentions predestination you ensure it's final resting place and thus prove that it was predestined to be moved or deleted.

You could even refer to them as "Ainulindalaid"

Additions to the Dictionary:

Ainulindalay: To deliberately Osgiliate a thread by mentioning predestination. ( Could be adapted to fit any pet subject )
Ainulindalove: To have a pet subject that continually Osgiliates or Ainulindalays a thread.
Ainulindalost: refers to points that were in a post that contains an Ainulindalay and were moved or deleted along with the Ainulindalaid thread.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

<deletes long response to Cerin>

I will stay out of this discussion henceforth.

[Primula Baggins]

Please don't do that, Voronwë! There's so much you can contribute to help us Silmarillion n00bs get oriented.

[Alatar]

Jeez V, it was meant to be tongue in cheek. (Although with a grain of truth). Its not up to me how people discuss this. If you want to talk free will from here to eternity its really none of my business.

Wonders why everyone is so damn sensitive

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Maybe because I had just spent two hours ending at 2:30 in the morning carefully gathering up sources and arguments only to find your post when I refreshed the thread before posting on the off chance that somebody may have added something that I should respond to. At 2:30 in the morning it didn't sound tongue in cheek. Just bad luck that you happened to post at that exact moment.

A chance meeting, as we say in Middle-earth

Anyway, I've had my say about all this stuff. Time for new blood.

[Alatar]

Sorry V

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Not your fault, Al.

[axordil]

I will say two things, the first generally applicable, the second more particular to the Sil, in the hopes of getting us back on track.

1) Predestination vs. free will is solely a matter of point of view; that is, whether one exists in time or not. We do, and so for us--choice and free will are necessary conditions of existence. God doesn't, and so gets to divide by zero, as it were. Every choice we make is real at the moment we make it, for us. That doesn't mean it's a surprise to an omniscient creator who exists independetly of time and space.

2) The Sil makes it clear that the Second-born do not play by the same rules as the Ainur and First-born, that fate does not bind them in Arda as it does the immortal peoples. I have read this, given the above, as evidence that the elves were capable of knowing their destinies if they chose, at least within the circles of the world. This is alluded to frequently in the Sil, and mirrors elvish memory, which is more like the waking world to them than us. In this respect, elves more closely resemble Eru. But the Gift of Men is not so much death as not being tied to the fate of the created world, and so in this respect Men are closer to their creator's image.

There, that was easy. Next?

[Cerin]

Voronwë, I don't suppose you saved the text of that post? Please, please don't stay out of this thread. That would pretty much defeat its purpose.

Anyway, I've had my say about all this stuff.

But I've not heard it.

Every choice we make is real at the moment we make it, for us. That doesn't mean it's a surprise to an omniscient creator who exists independetly of time and space.

Agreed. Perhaps there's some real confusion over the term pre-destined, because you seem to be using it to mean what I mean when I say 'foreknown'.

Certainly an omniscient creator will know how everything is going to turn out. However, that isn't to say he decides how things are going to turn out. Rather, the creatures making the choices over time determine the course of events. It is only from the creator's point of view that things can be said to be pre-destined, because the creator sees how things will be. From the point of view of the creation in time, all choices exist.

[axordil]

Separating the foreknowledge of an omniscient creator (who created the universe AND who exists independently of the space and time of that universe) from predestination is an essentially academic exercise. Creation must have been ex exordium ut terminus.

Free will is solely a function of a perception born of existing in time, a product of human consciousness interpreting the universe. Choice is a product of limited perception. That doesn't mean we don't have to make choices, or that they don't have real effects WITHIN time.

[Primula Baggins]

This same sort of "predestination" would exist even without a creator. Any observer looking at our universe in four dimensions rather than three would see the whole thing completely, start to finish, all at "once." From that standpoint everything exists "at once" and all our choices could be known by any observer at all.

Every choice we make, our futures, could be known by an outside observer (outside the universe, meaning also outside time). That idea is not a product of religious faith; it's just a fact.

[Cerin]

I'm not sure I quite get what you're saying, Ax.

It seems more than an academic exercise, if people are misunderstanding what others mean by the word 'pre-destined'.

I see the Valar as being able to decide what they will do. My understanding was that Voronwë sees their actions as being pre-programmed, that is, they can only do what the creator has pre-ordained that they will do.

This is a real difference, is it not?

Free will is solely a function of a perception born of existing in time, a product of human consciousness interpreting the universe. Choice is a product of limited perception. That doesn't mean we don't have to make choices, or that they don't have real effects WITHIN time.

I'm afraid I don't understand this. Choice is a product of limited perception?

[axordil]

Cerin--

Yes. A necessary product of our perception being limited to time and space.

Prim--

Yes, exactly. It's just that the observers proposed as having this status is usually limited to those who also made the whole schmeer.

[Primula Baggins]

Which certainly makes sense to me.

I'm just pointing out that the concept doesn't require a deity.