Harry Potter (No book 7 spoilers, please)

[MithLuin]

Some people seem to think this board is high brow. I don't know what would have given that impression....

Anyway, I aim to demolish it

So, let's talk about something fun and low-brow, ie, the most popular children's fantasy books since...since....well, since anybody figured out how to market to children so well!

But they are a wonderful mix of silliness, school stories, mystery, coming-of-age, and, oh yes, save the world from an evil Dark Lord with the help of your friends, complete with suspense. There are a million other books that are something like them, but they are at least a unique version of that mix. Harry's time with the Dursleys could have been written by Roald Dahl, and of course there are other mysteries that take place in British boarding schools, etc., etc.

I envision that this thread could be a catch-all for discussion of the books. Favorite characters/ scenes/ passages, predictions for book 7, overanalysis of everything from Snape's motives to Voldemort's childhood to the workings of the Wizarding world.... and of course whatever else people want to talk about, including the movies.

I will start it off with favorite characters. Mine is Severus Snape. He is greasy, petty, cruel...and yet saves the day as often as not. He is clearly brilliant, and has wonderful control of his classroom (the teacher in me is very jealous of his 'presence'). And yet he is terribly immature, still caught up in adolescent fears and grudges. And despite siding with the good guys, he has sneaky bad-guy written all over him. He didn't so much convert as just switch sides.... All around, a very interesting, complicated, and.... mysterious character. His motives are fairly opaque. And then there is that silky voice and those glittering eyes . While I don't swoon for Alan Rickman, I do think he plays a very charismatic Snape, so quite intriguing, over all. Watching the 4th movie, I realized that I swoon for Voldemort's robes - they are so amazingly swirly, they are just perfect!

So, now you know that I am a complete nutcase

What do other people think of the Harry Potter books?

EDIT: Please refrain from discussing spoilers/teasers from JKR (or the HP websites). We will read book 7 when it comes out!

[Holbytla]

I read the first book over a weekend. It reminded me of when I was 13 and reading The Hardy Boys.
I think they are fine for their audience, but I realize I am not their audience.
Saw the first movie and liked it.
Fell asleep a half hour into the 2nd movie and haven't watched a minute since. I am not the intended audience. I am old and grumpy.

[MithLuin]

HEhehe, I see. Well, yes, the first two books are strictly aimed at kids. The third book introduces some adults as major characters, so gets a bit more interesting. The tone (and writing) of the fourth one is very obviously older (or more mature, depending on how you want to look at it). But they are, most definately, children's literature. The sixth book consisted mostly of soap opera and back story - it felt like reading Sweet Valley Twins in parts .

[Sassafras]

What Holby said.

With one infinitesimal difference. Okay, two infinitesimal differences.

<cue The Spanish Iniquisition>



My age frame of reference was 11 instead of 13 and I felt as though I were reading Enid Blyton's 'Famous Five' series.

Have never attempted any other HP book.
Never made it all the way through any of the films.

I am a curmudgeon by day and downright obnoxious by night.

[Erunáme]

Reading The_Wagner's posts on HP shows that HP is not exactly low brow.

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

I love Harry Potter.
In fact, I got my copy of Book 6 at 12:05am in costume.

I wasn't going to read them at first; they were too popular. My mum ordered a copy for me from the library, though, so I figured I'd give it a go. Ended up reading the whole book in one sitting.

Favourite character? Definitely Sirius. He's brilliant in all ways. He's got this ambiguity to him that's really interesting -- clearly a 'good' character, but he also has this very dark side to his nature. I love the Weasley twins, too. Just because. I love Dumbledore, too. He's so very sage but got that mischievous side to him. Half Blood Prince was one of the few books that has ever made me really cry. (Order didn't because Sirius isn't gone yet.)

Eru, your avatar is so cute! What a wonderful photo.

[Meneltarma]

Can't we just drag The_Wagner over here? As Eru said, his posts on TORC prove that the Harry Potter books aren't necessarily low-brow.

Snape is definately one of my favourite characters.

[Holbytla]

I never thought it was low brow, I just never felt like I was the intended audience.

[MithLuin]

Can't we just drag The_Wagner over here? As Eru said, his posts on TORC prove that the Harry Potter books aren't necessarily low-brow.

Snape is definately one of my favourite characters.

Well, yes, I agree, his posts on the subject are so erudite as to scare most people away . But the best way to get him here would be to start an intelligent conversation on the topic, and then invite him to join us .

[Holbytla]

Can't we just drag The_Wagner over here? As Eru said, his posts on TORC prove that the Harry Potter books aren't necessarily low-brow.

Snape is definately one of my favourite characters.

Well, yes, I agree, his posts on the subject are so erudite as to scare most people away . But the best way to get him here would be to start an intelligent conversation on the topic, and then invite him to join us .

But he is a Cub's fan.

[truehobbit]

I love Harry Potter!

And I don't think it's low-brow or even typical children's lit at all!

But more to that later - one reason for me not to take part in the TORC-thread on HP (apart from its being too fast moving for me ) is that it contains a lot of speculation.
Could we just, before we get started, define whether we are going to have speculation in here or not?
Obviously, I'm voting for 'not'!
I love to talk about the books and the characters and the ideas, but arguing what is going to happen in the next book, what the latest rumours say, is spoiling the fun for me - even though there are of course things I hope to happen in the next book, I like to be surprised with books I haven't read yet, rather than say "wow, Wagner was right".
So, could we just say in the title whether this is supposed to contain spoilers or be spoiler-free (spoilers of course only referring to things still to come, not books already in print)?

Right, more on topic now.

I don't remember when I first read a Harry Potter book, but I have the first three volumes in paperback, so it must have been sometime into year three that I first read them.
I loved it instantly - the sense of humour, the wittiness struck me as very English and not your run-of-the-mill children's book.
Book I is memorable to me because of the brilliance of the ideas and the fact that the whole idea is new. Book II I hardly remember at all, and book III immediately made it to(and still is) my favourite. Quite early on in that book I started to hope that the supposed bad guy would turn out to be the good guy, but I told myself not to expect it, after all it was just a children's book - simple morals and all that - so, you can imagine how thrilled I was to find my hopes fulfilled!
Books IV and V I found rather disappointing, but Book VI I liked quite a lot again.

I think there's no comparison with "Famous Five" or so - in fact, I usually think of that series by way of contrast.
"Famous Five" is very much the kids' adventure books I grew up with (although I didn't read all of them), and I'm often thinking how, with all the bad guys around the kids were so bravely hunting down, no one ever posed a serious threat to anyone, no one ever got in any real danger - and now we have the Harry Potter books where people are killed left and right, and some really serious ethical challenges are made on everybody - I love it!

Actually, I think there is a serious comparison you could make in that respect to - dare I say it? - LOTR!
Of course you can also have a lot of fun comparing the characters and mixing the stories - I did that with a friend on IM once and we laughed till it hurt, figuring out what Harry Potter-character could take the role of what LOTR-character.

As to the movies, the recent one is my favourite! At first sight I was a bit taken aback with how much the kids had grown up, but once I was used to that, I thought it was great! It cut all the boring bits of the book to acceptable length, and the visuals and plot-elements were very good - and the music was just swoon-worthy!
(Well, apart from the horrid rock-band they had playing for the party. )

So - I know I said I didn't like to speculate - but does anyone know when we can expect the next installment?

[Primula Baggins]

She's writing away now, hobby! And I'll be there when it comes out.

I, too, thoroughly enjoy these—the books more than the films, though the films are good fun and the last two especially good.

When I read one of the books I get a lovely feeling of relaxing into it—of knowing that I'm in good hands, will be well entertained, and will not be disappointed.

I even enjoy the digressions and ornamentations in the longer books except the house elves, just as I enjoy them in Dickens. It's like a leisurely drive through interesting country. The books I loved as a child have this quality, too.

I don't know when we became obsessed with terseness and plainness as the hallmark of fine storytelling—well, not "storytelling," because stories aren't so important any more either; we are to study characters who suffer because it's apparently edifying, even if their problems are their own fault and they do nothing to fight them.

[MithLuin]

Hobby, I would be happy to keep the spoilers to a minimum. Would you like me to add that to the thread title, just in case?

A few questions, though, just so I can understand what you mean.

I assume you mean, you don't want people saying "JKR just posted on her website that...." I dunno, a character is gonna die, we're going to see more of someone from book 2, whatever. .

But just so I don't offend, that would also include endless speculation, ie, "what do you think the horcruxes are?" "Is Harry going to survive book 7?" "How many kids will Ron and Hermione have?"

The reason I ask is that I think discussing any of the books eventually leads to questions like, "okay, what's the deal with Snape, is he good or evil?" And "why did LV ask Lily to step aside?" And so, I wouldn't want to promise a 'spoiler-free' thread if speculation like that would be considered spoilers...

And as for The Wagner being right.... he thought Harry and Luna were going to get together in book 6 . But he does have good ideas, generally.

Prim, I don't know what the deal with the House Elves is! I just don't get it. It seems like they are a commentary on slavery and injustice, and yet...it goes nowhere. And Hermione is just silly about it.

[Frelga]

I was amazed at the profound comments people made on the subject of HP books.

I enjoy them, lightly. The first two were much better than I expected, the next books became progressively darker and more mature.

[Rowanberry]

I first encountered Harry Potter when a friend of mine lent the first book, which she had bought to her own children, to my older daughter, and said that I might like it too. I read it, and did like it - it was a children's book, but a very good one IMO. Later, I bought the book myself, and then, the subsequent parts as soon as the translations were published (books 5 and 6 as soon as the originals were published, and the translations for the girls later).

Rowling is a good storyteller, and I like the fact that something that's mentioned in an earlier book turns out to play an important part later in the story. And, I like her humour. There are weaknesses and plotholes though, like lack of depth for some characters, and confusions with some people's ages and story timelines, and the last three books, especially OotP, could have benefited from heavier editing - there's a bit of stuff that I find redundant.

[superwizard]

I agree that JKR is a good author. However I ask you while she is a good storyteller I believe that's it. I mean I don't think she's the best. I just ask you why did her books become so popular in your opinion? Because of their greatness? Somehow I don't think that's it there must be other authors just as competent as she is so why is she so famous?

[Primula Baggins]

I think it's the combination of ideas that are inviting to young readers (being whisked away out of your ordinary life because you have rare powers; the whole boarding school thing where there are no parents and you are with your friends 24/7; the details and ramifications of the various magic skills) with an easy writing style, humor, more interesting characterizations than books like this usually have, and most of all, the dark side. Punches are not pulled; characters die; even heroes make stupid mistakes and suffer for them.

Other writers may have one or two of these advantages, but I think it's rare to find them all.

[MithLuin]

I agree with Prim - it's the combination of many good elements. It isn't just adventure or mystery or coming-of-age....it's all three, and more. So, it has a little something for everyone.

Some people like the descriptions of the spells the kids learn in class. It's a 'school story' with an exotic setting. Related to this, we get all the nuances of getting along with a bunch of teenagers. Who's not talking to who, who's ga-ga over whom, and who makes the team. Which teachers are unfair, or boring, or strict, or just plain oddballs. There is a lot of time and effort put into sneaking around after hours when they are supposed to be in bed . But they do homework and stress out over tests and all that as well. Very easy for students to relate to!

Others like the cleverness of the names - most characters' names turn out to be significant. Lily and Petunia are sisters. Sirius Black can be a black dog. (Sirius is the Dog Star.) Argus Filch is the caretaker who always catches the students who are where they don't belong. (Argus...many eyes). Remus Lupin and Fenrir Greyback are werewolves. The first book had a logic puzzle. The fifth one has a prophecy. Most of the shops have names that relate to what they sell. The names of the books and the spells and the 'wizarding products' are all goofy/tongue-in-cheek. Basically, she's created an entire world, and shows us tantalizing (and often amusing) glimpses of it. We get to visit the wizards' hospital and see what bizarre sorts of maladies you can get, that sort of thing.

And they are very suspenseful mysteries! Most people read the last 200 pages at a gulp. She sets everything up in the beginning, then lets it run in the background while Harry runs around confused most of the year (worrying about other things). Then, suddenly, at the end all is made clear. There is always a twist. People aren't who they seem. And even though 'Voldemort' is almost always the bad guy, who he's working through or what his plan is is seldom clear. It generally isn't easy to see through these stories, which is why adults also enjoy them.

I enjoy them very much. But, they do have some cliched or weak points. The Slytherins are almost always cruel, ugly and stupid. Whether people are 'good guys' or 'bad guys' is generally clear based on how bigoted they are. This saves us the trouble of paying too close attention to what they actually do.... Harry can come across as too much of a victim, perhaps.

But whatever - I like them. Some friends 'forced' me to watch all three movies when the third one came out, and then assured me that I should read the book (for the third one, at least) because the movie had botched it so badly. I read the first two, and felt I hadn't gained anything more than watching the movie. The third one was different, and I liked it. So I then raced right through books 4 and 5.... I guess I read all of them in about a month (my brothers were reading them along with me, so that was fun...) I then had to wait a whole year for book6

The stories are good, and entertaining, and I like them very much. But they do lack some level of reality, I guess. I can be more cavalier with these characters than I can with Tolkien's . I think...I think it is because I do see parts of her world as too lightly sketched or too simplistic that I just can't receive it without meddling.

Hmmm, what do I mean. She recently put out a family tree, clarifying some ages of minor characters. I had already determined, on my own from internal clues, about how old some of these people were. Her 'official' version didn't match mine....but it doesn't match the books, either. So, what to do? I don't give her credit to get those sorts of details right, even if it is her book. I mean, she's the author, so what she says should be true. But...she clearly didn't think of some of these at the time she was writing. So, I don't take it 'seriously.' (Or perhaps I take it too seriously)....

[Wildwood]

I love Harry Potter! :D:D My favorite character so far?? Can't begin to say! :D I like so many of them, at different times. I have even liked Snape at times. You know, I actually wished him to be secretly working on the side of good and all his nastiness to be NOT really him at all, but an act he has to put on for the good of the greater cause, but I just do NOT believe it. He's rotten! :D:D:D

I mostly love what Alan Rickman does with the character in teh movies, except I just wish they'd spend more TIME on it!! :D:D

I love the Weaslye twins. They crack me UP! :D:D The kids who portay them in the movies make me laugh so hard. They really nail it down! I also love Ron, adn the actor who plays that character as well. The more I read the books, the more I like 'em! :D:D

Sirius is a real favorite, as is Lupin!! Dumbledore is great, adn the last book made me CRY! I am not crazy about the new Dumbledore, in the movies. He's too harsh and out of control. (Just like a certain other wizard depiction I have a problem with!!) Richard Harris caught the mercurial quality that this new guyjust can't seem to pin down at all, in my opinion! :D:D:D

In general, I do not have real high expectations for books along the lines of Harry Potter. My daughter actually discovered them in school, some years back, and introduced me to them. We've been reading them together ever since. In fact, when new ones come out, I have always bought TWO of them, because I am incapable of putting a good book down, and don't want to share, but also do not have the heart to make her wait! :D:D:D:D:D

The movies have - not surprisingly - irritated me in several ways! :D I have liked them well enough, I suppose. I am not nearly as wrapped up in HP as I am in LOTR, so I am more tolerant of changes, but there are things that just drive me crazy - like the dragon chase in this last movie that came out last holiday season! Not in the books, and a huge waste of time, in my opinion; time that could have been spent giving me more of the story in the pages! :D:D:D But that is an old saw for me. I won't get any further into it, unless anybody just wants to talk about it.

Hobby - I'm on your side. I love talking about the stories, but I am not one bit interested in talking over rumors about what is supposed to happen. :D I'll be happy to talk about why I think Snape really is bad all the way through, or how I thought - for a while - that Petunia may actually have been to HOgwarts and flunked out OR wanted to go and did not get invited because she's a squib or whatever!

I love the house elves. I can't yet figure out what the importance of them is, except to say that Dobby definitely saved Harry from the Avada Cadavra curse at the end of book two! She tells us, in that scene, how very powerful house elves' magic is!! It makes me wonder, still, whether house elves will come into play in the last book! Seems to me that their servitude if voluntary, and maybe they forgot it for a while or something?

I just think that they must have that awesome magic for some reason besides washing up! :D:D:D:D:D:D So I suspect we'll see something more out of 'em before all is done, but that is pure specualation on my part!

Anyhow - very good books. Not "great" but very very good, if you take my meaning?? I much prefer teh books to the movies, and like the movies mostly, but have problems with certain changes! :D:D:D

In other words, here I am, ready to discuss! :D:D:D:D
Shall we have chocolate chip cookies and milk while we talk???
:D:D:D

[Queen_Beruthiel]

I read the first book over a weekend. It reminded me of when I was 13 and reading The Hardy Boys.
I think they are fine for their audience, but I realize I am not their audience.
Saw the first movie and liked it.
Fell asleep a half hour into the 2nd movie and haven't watched a minute since. I am not the intended audience. I am old and grumpy.

Do try the other books and films. They are so much better!

there are things that just drive me crazy - like the dragon chase in this last movie that came out last holiday season! Not in the books, and a huge waste of time, in my opinion

Well I liked it.



P.S. I have invited TheWagner over. However, if he comes, his presence might not be conducive to tranquillity. We are both of us very firm HP revisionists (in my case, game-keeper turned poacher).