Apologies

[nerdanel]

How dare you, I am always the best judge! Of all the things!

Typical INTJ.

*shoves loudly into this gathering of Is* Yo yo yo E is IN DA HOUSE!!!!! First order of business: yov, I am totally ready to challenge you for the title of Way Better Judge of All the Awesome Things. If you disagree, why don't we find a time to meet up and sort this out. I think a very large and social networking gathering with tons of strangers in a very big city would be JUST the venue for us to select the Way Better Judge.

Jewel, I could see you as an INFJ. I think your J is quite strong, actually. At first, I might have thought you were an S, but ISFJ doesn't seem to fit you very well. So what about ENFJ? You know whether you're an E or an I, though, and I do find that hard to judge* on a messageboard. Is your I strong or are you closer to the E end of things?

If Jewel's not a J, I will eat my hat - which hat I still don't own after years of threatening to buy one for figurative consumption purposes.

*Actually, the fact that we all post on a messageboard means, in my experience, that we are more likely to be introverts. The extroverts I know have little patience for this mode of communication and fellowship.

From an extrovert perspective: online interaction is, generally speaking, a consolation prize/substitute for the real thing, at times when circumstances mean that real life interaction is not possible. After saying that, I immediately have to clarify that this board has a special place in my heart (and the hearts of the other extroverts who post here, I'd wager), and that general principle is not solely what drives any of us to continue to post here, I suspect.

That said: I found TORC when I was studying for 1L exams in law school. My college friends had moved away, I was stuck in Virginia to study for finals, and because I was in front of my computer all day, I didn't have the chance to interact meaningfully with many people outside of my computer - so I started interacting with people inside of my computer. (That doesn't make me sound crazy at all. ) I also know that I posted to my blog very intensely when I was studying for the bar exam (a time when I had sworn off even other forms of online interaction like this site.) And I see that I've started to come here more as my RL socializing time has constricted due to my job. On the other hand, at times when I've had enough free time to step away from the computer, I've been more absent from this site. I'm sharing these stream of consciousness thoughts not to offend, but to reflect: many Is on this site have suggested that they enjoy messageboard communication because it allows them to socialize in a way that's less stressful to them, whereas they find larger social gatherings that Es find desirable to be stressful and draining. It seems intuitive, then, that the rare Es who even choose to use the messageboard format would prefer in-person interactions and would find the messageboard interactions less desirable. And I'd say that's true: I'm much more interested in seeing you folks in person than in posting with you online. The messageboard is merely a compromise necessary to keep in touch across distance. After eight years in the Bay Area, the San Francisco moot of 2006 stands out as a high point of my time here, and I have to tell you guys that I still walk down Lombard Street and smile, remembering many of you there with me.

Now, on the TJ part:

Like Cerin, I am a TJ, and I strongly identify with those two letters - much more than the E and N. (I F very strongly about being a TJ. ) So perhaps it's not surprising that I relate to her discomfort with apologizing for a consequence if you don't regret the underlying action. And similarly, if I was upset by someone else's action, I would place absolutely no weight on an apology that did not regret the action, but only the consequence. Being a lawyer, I promise that I'd listen for and catch the semantic difference, too. I might even be offended by the presumed apology, if it had even the slightest hint of "I'm sorry that you were upset/offended..." - and I think there's a huge risk of the apology taking that tone when the "apologist" believes they acted correctly.

It's very difficult to say more, though, without knowing the facts of the situation about which we're commenting.

[JewelSong]

Jewel, I could see you as an INFJ. I think your J is quite strong, actually. At first, I might have thought you were an S, but ISFJ doesn't seem to fit you very well. So what about ENFJ? You know whether you're an E or an I, though, and I do find that hard to judge* on a messageboard. Is your I strong or are you closer to the E end of things?

I am definitely an "I". People sometimes laugh when I say that, because I am quite outspoken and passionate about things I believe it and because I am very good at organising events and being "in charge."

But only when I know what I am doing and when that is my job. I despise large, social gatherings where you have to mill around and make meaningless small talk. I even hate small social gatherings where I already know everyone, but the only purpose is to mill around and be social. I hate being "social."

I like intimate conversations/discussions where there is something at stake. Otherwise, I'd rather be home reading a good book or taking a nap.

[yovargas]

*shoves loudly into this gathering of Is* Yo yo yo E is IN DA HOUSE!!!!! First order of business: yov, I am totally ready to challenge you for the title of Way Better Judge of All the Awesome Things. If you disagree, why don't we find a time to meet up and sort this out. I think a very large and social networking gathering with tons of strangers in a very big city would be JUST the venue for us to select the Way Better Judge.

Oh, okay, fine, I concede to you the position of Supreme Way Better Judge but I totally get a position in one of the nicer higher-level courts.

And similarly, if I was upset by someone else's action, I would place absolutely no weight on an apology that did not regret the action, but only the consequence. Being a lawyer, I promise that I'd listen for and catch the semantic difference, too. I might even be offended by the presumed apology, if it had even the slightest hint of "I'm sorry that you were upset/offended..." - and I think there's a huge risk of the apology taking that tone when the "apologist" believes they acted correctly.

I've had the same thought too in that, depending on the circumstances, I'm not sure I would appreciate such an attempted apology.

People sometimes laugh when I say that, because I am quite outspoken and passionate about things I believe it and because I am very good at organising events and being "in charge."

These are not very NF traits!

[Cerin]

The apology has been launched.

I couldn't have done it without the insights this conversation provided! Thanks one and all.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Hopefully it will be accepted in the spirit intended! Thanks for sharing, and sparking quite an interesting discussion.

[Lalaith]

Yes, thank you for starting the discussion. It's been enlightening. I hope there's a positive outcome for you!

And I can report that I may not have to have that discussion with the pastor's wife/pastor after all. A series of events yesterday (to my mind, orchestrated by God), revealed that part of the issue was a misunderstanding on their part and my daughter's part. And they have resolved it between themselves. (!) So the discussion I need to have with the pastor's wife has evolved into an opportunity for me to share with her information about dyslexia and how it affects Sarah. This is something I should've done a long time ago, but I got complacent. I can actually see now how God worked the timing out for the better, so that's cool. I'm not sure I would've had that awareness if I hadn't put my thoughts into words in this discussion. So thank you, Cerin!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Excellent, Lali!

[Passdagas the Brown]

I'm very social and communicative, in large and small gatherings. Most people I know, including my friends, are convinced I am an outright extrovert.

What they don't know is that I'm mentally exhausted after all my interactions with them.

However, my MB test was kind of split, and has changed over time. I used to be a solid I (can't remember the rest), but have since leaned toward the E, though with heavy I attributes (like being mentally drained by social interactions).

[JewelSong]

"INFJs place great importance on havings things orderly and systematic in their outer world. They put a lot of energy into identifying the best system for getting things done, and constantly define and re-define the priorities in their lives. On the other hand, INFJs operate within themselves on an intuitive basis which is entirely spontaneous. They know things intuitively, without being able to pinpoint why, and without detailed knowledge of the subject at hand. They are usually right, and they usually know it. Consequently, INFJs put a tremendous amount of faith into their instincts and intuitions. This is something of a conflict between the inner and outer worlds, and may result in the INFJ not being as organized as other Judging types tend to be. Or we may see some signs of disarray in an otherwise orderly tendency, such as a consistently messy desk."

This is me to a "T." I like to organize things because I usually believe I know the best way to do it. And, I'm usually right. (One of my friends once told me, in an annoyed voice, "You always have to be right." And I replied, "But I usually AM right!"

In addition, I sometimes find myself having to backtrack when working with staff, because I will suddenly "see" the big picture, complete and finished and I just start barging ahead without taking the time to walk everyone through my thought process. Often because there hasn't really BEEN a thought process. I just kind of "know."

There's more here: http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html.

It's not ALL "me" but most of it is. And as I've said before, I have consistently come out as an INFJ no matter what test I take.

Cerin, I m glad you were able to resolve the situation. You, too, Lali!




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[Cerin]

When I looked for the first time at one of Myers-Briggs websites, after the subject came up earlier in the thread, it seemed very easy to pick between E and I, S and N, F and T, and P and J based on the simple meanings of the words they stood for. I hadn't yet read any of the information, and my choice was instinctive. I knew myself to be an introvert, highly intuitive, and quick to make judgments about things. The F-T choice was more difficult, because I am a highly emotional person in person (that is, I react to things emotionally). To tell you the truth, I never saw myself as a thinker until I became active in our family of messageboard communities and saw my thought process in words, and began to see myself reflected in the reactions of other posters. I thought of myself as a feeler, because we (who take after our Croatian-Hungarian father) are emotionally tumultuous people. It seems that in any situation, it's the perceived underlying principle that interests me almost exclusively. I don't know how this relates to the M-B construct, but I'm not sure it's INTJ-y. I've never thought of myself as a pragmatist.

It all seems more complicated and less straightforward now that I've read some of the explanatory texts. In particular, the section that talks about dominant and auxiliary pairs hasn't made sense to me yet.

Cerin, do you think it might be a bit challenging for an INTJ (that would be you) to interact with an INFJ (which would possibly be your sister)?

No, I hadn't thought that specifically. I was wondering if there were any classically bad interactions between the letter sets that I should be aware of, and if that might be one.

Poor mom is an ESFJ.

Poor mom, indeed! But I had always thought of it in terms of ethnic temperament. My extremely reserved, stoic German Swiss mother marries a Hungarian Croat! Poor woman. Always trying to calm waters that were by nature turbulent. She will go to any length to avoid conflict and upset. It is also anathema to her to talk about personal (inner) matters or express emotion. I do not know what letter group would best represent her.


Lali, that is great news!

edit

Interestingly enough, my sister reads horoscopes. Maybe while I am figuring her out with M-B, she is figuring me out with star charts. (Is it star charts?)

[Frelga]

Cerin, I actually would peg you as a feeler, if I were going to peg you.

I think of the second and third diads as input and output. In my very simplistic interpretation, S means relying on empirical evidence where N starts with abstract ideas. On the output side, J goes with what makes sense where F with what feels right.

Obviously, everyone uses both senses and ideas to collect information, both logic and intuition to make decisions. Which is where my criticism of the profiles comes from - they focus on the preference and leave out the degree of preference. They also do not at all account for how good a person is at logical thinking, empathy, and so on.

[yovargas]

Which is where my criticism of the profiles comes from - they focus on the preference and leave out the degree of preference.

Totally. I think this is the biggest weakness in MBTI, one of several. IMO it's only really useful with people whose types are very strongly, clearly in one direction.

[Primula Baggins]

I think it's useful in other ways. I'm not the only one I know who was able to accept and embrace being an introvert because learning about the MBTI helped me understand that it's one way human beings are—that it's not a moral failing ("being shy"), as I was taught growing up, but just a way many of us process social interactions. It even taught me to handle the interactions better because I now know that I'm going to need to retreat and recharge after even the most enjoyable party. Because I expect it and allow for it, and know that time is planned for, I can have a good time for longer. I know my need to duck out and go home is normal and will be met when the time is right.

[Cerin]

On the output side, J goes with what makes sense where F with what feels right.

(Did you mean 'T' goes with what makes sense?)

Ideally, what feels right is also what makes sense.

I don't think emotions are necessarily to be trusted as a basis for decision making.

[Frelga]

Yeah, sorry, I meant T.

[yovargas]

I'll eat nel's hat if Cerin isn't a T.

[Cerin]

[Primula Baggins]

It would take my whole family at least twenty minutes to eat that hat.

[Passdagas the Brown]

I took it again and got INTP, though I'm still barely an I (51%). The results also seem to confirm my star sign (Libra), which I generally think is BS, but can't help but find to be generally accurate.

[Passdagas the Brown]

One line from the definition of an INTP:

INTPs live in the world of theoretical possibilities. They see everything in terms of how it could be improved, or what it could be turned into.

I think Peter Jackson, if he read my posts here, would agree with that assessment.