LotR: What do you dislike about the Books?

[superwizard]

I too read the Lord of the Rings the first few times skipping over the poery. Then I made myself read it once and include all the poems. After reading them I realized that they were pretty nice, just give them a chance that's all I'm saying.

[Pearly Di]

I like the poetry!

Correction: I love the poetry.

No, it's not as good as Shakespeare.

But it's GOOD. Tolkien does it ever so well. 'Eärendil was a mariner' is a little miniature masterpiece, actually. Danged clever, and beautiful to boot.

When I first read LOTR, I was DYING to know what happened next, the story is such a page-turner.

I tortured myself by making myself read the poems, even when I was dying to race on ahead with the story and FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED NEXT.

I read each and every single poem. I didn't skip one.

Even when Aragorn and Legolas take their blessed time to sing a three verse dirge over Boromir when for the love of St Pete aren't they getting on the orc-trail already.

Ah, but I understand what Tolkien was doing there. He's freeze-framing time. It doesn't matter that logically it makes no sense for the warrior-heroes to stop and sing a dirge for their fallen comrade. It's Epic Romance.

And I had to read 'Eärendil was a mariner' several times because it was referring to things I hadn't a clue about. (Who the heck was Eärendil? Where and what was Avernien???? What the dickens was a Silmaril????? )



It was the beauty and poetry of the poem which haunted me, like music.

[Sassafras]

I think Galadriel as a character stands fully on her own without the additional background from The Silmarillion. The only thing I can think that The Sil really adds to her in terms of LOTR is it gives the reader a greater understanding of her situation as an Exile.

Well said, Tom. I completely agree.

I agree even more once I learned that Tolkien needed to re-work Galadriel's story in the Sil to make it correlate to LotR.
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Now then. Regarding Tolkien's poetry.

Much of it, especially when it aspires to Shakespearean hights, is embarrassingly bad. I'm sorry but it just is. It is what I call florid and chock-full of overworked metaphors and/or adjectives. The simplier verse is much more sucessful ... Bilbo's The Road goes Ever On conveys, more directly and with almost no flourish, the requisite emotions and the pièce de résistance is surely the Ring Verse ...

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for mortal men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Rinf to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

This is the most skillfull of all of Tolkien's verse. It has magical incantations, it is direct and the simplicity is not marred by the frantic over use of adjectives. It is deft and it is powerful!

But is it poetry? Or is it merely verse?




eta: cross-posted with Di. O My!

[Erunáme]

Well, you write poetry yourself Di, so I'd expect you like it.

[Erunáme]

The simplier verse is much more sucessful ... Bilbo's The Road goes Ever On conveys, more directly and with almost no flourish, the requisite emotions

I agree. I find the simpler poems to be the most enjoyable.

[vison]

Same song, second verse,
A little bit louder and
A little bit worse!

[Pearly Di]

Well, you write poetry yourself Di, so I'd expect you like it.

Sassy

Verse or poetry?

Weeeeeeell ... one has to say, in most cases, erm, verse.

But very good verse.

[axordil]

I had forgotten the poetry.

Damn.

Now I remember it.

[Pearly Di]

[vison]

A Sonnet On the Subject:

Is Tolkien’s poetry just verse?
Or is it even something worse?
For some of us it sings a song,
For others, it’s just far too long.

For some of us it sets the mood,
Like when he writes of baths, or food.
(The thought of nekkid hobbits causes
Smiles and not loud snorting scoffses.)

Verse that’s grand and hifalutin
Makes some stand up and say, “Darn tootin’
Tolkien’s poems are just like Shakespeare
Only better.” Others read the things and hear

Mere silly rhymes and common thoughts
That maybe should just be forgot.

[superwizard]

Very nice vison!!!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Now then. Regarding Tolkien's poetry.

Much of it, especially when it aspires to Shakespearean hights, is embarrassingly bad. I'm sorry but it just is. It is what I call florid and chock-full of overworked metaphors and/or adjectives. The simplier verse is much more sucessful

Sorry, Sass, but I completely disagree. Some of the simpler stuff is utterly embarrassing (though I do like The Road Goes Ever On a lot), particularly Tom Bombadillo's silly rhymes. And some of the more complex stuff is beautiful. I love Eärendil is a Mariner - the rhythm in that piece is brilliant, but my favorite, at least in English, is:

I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew.
Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea,
And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree.
Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone,
In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion.
There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years,
While here beyond the Sundering Seas now fall the Elven-tears.
O Lórien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day;
The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away.
O Lórien! Too long I have dwelt upon this Hither Shore
And in a fading crown have twined the golden elanor.
But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?



Even better:



[Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen,
Yéni únótimë ve rámar aldaron!
Yéni ve lintë yuldar avánier
mi oromardi lisse-miruvóreva
Andúnë pella, Vardo tellumar
nu luini yassen tintilar i eleni
ómaryo airetári-lírinen.

Sí man i yulma nin enquantuva?

An sí Tintallë Varda Oiolossëo
ve fanyar máryat Elentári ortanë
ar ilyë tier undulávë lumbulë;
ar sindanóriello caita mornië
i falmalinnar imbë met, ar hísië
untúpa Calaciryo míri oialë.
Sí vanwa ná, Rómello vanwa, Valimar!

Namárië! Nai hiruvalyë Valimar.
Nail elyë hiryva. Namárië!


Ah! like gold fall the leaves in the wind,
long years numberless as the wings of trees!
The long years have passed like swift draughts
of the sweet mead in lofty halls beyond the West,
beneath the blue vaults of Varda wherein the stars
tremble in the song of her voice, holy and queenly.
Who now shall refill the cup for me?
For now the Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the Stars,
from Mount Everwhite has uplifted her hands like clouds,
and all paths are drowned deep in shadow;
and out of a grey country darkness lies
on the foaming waves between us, and mist
covers the jewels of Calacirya for ever.
Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar!
Farewell! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar.
Maybe even thou shalt find it. Farewell!]

And of course, there is Bregalad's Song:

O Orofarnë, Lassemista, Carnimírië!
O rowan fair, upon your hair how white the blossom lay!
O rowan mine, I saw you shine upon a summer's day,
Your rind so bright, your leaves so light, your voice so cool and soft:
Upon your head how golden-red the crown you bore aloft!
O rowan dead, upon your head your hair is dry and grey;
Your crown is spilled, your voice is stilled for ever and a day.
O Orofarnë, Lassemista, Carnimírië!



And of course:

Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?

[truehobbit]

Well, vison, that wasn't reeeeaaaally a sonnet... But very nice verse!

(What is the difference between verse and poetry in people's views? )

I agree with Pearl about the poetry! (What else is new? )

[Pearly Di]

Very nice vison!!!

Joins superwizard in applauding Vison.

Voronwë,

Hobbi,

[truehobbit]

Better answer my question, Pearly, than just smile at me.
(About verse vs poetry)

[Primula Baggins]

I can't read those verses in light colors, Voronwë.

I know which ones they are, but it hurts my eyes to try to read them here!

[superwizard]

Highlight them with your cursor and then you shall be able to:)

[Pearly Di]

Better answer my question, Pearly, than just smile at me.
(About verse vs poetry)

It's a good question but my brain is fried.

[yovargas]

Oh, yes, some of the stuff is tolerable, maybe even nice, but surely one thing everyone can agree upon is that when his poetry is bad it's really bad!

[Faramond]

That's my favorite in English too, Voronwë.