Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

[N.E. Brigand]

Unexpected citation by a New York Times columnist:



As you can see, he's responding to a story in Slate about an Oklahoma woman who became so obsessed with the idea that the 2012 school shootings in Newtown, Connecticut were staged that she hounded the parents of the kids who were killed demanding that they prove their children existed in the first place.

[N.E. Brigand]

Unexpected citation by a New York Times columnist ...

As you can see, he's responding to a story in Slate about an Oklahoma woman who became so obsessed with the idea that the 2012 school shootings in Newtown, Connecticut were staged that she hounded the parents of the kids who were killed demanding that they prove their children existed in the first place.

Although I just remembered that Jamelle Bouie's fondness for Tolkien's work has been noticed before.

[RoseMorninStar]

Wow. Hard to read that SLATE article. I couldn't finish it. Makes me sick.

[Sunsilver]

There are few things that make me as angry as the Sandy Hook conspiracy theories!!

Imagine what it would be like to be a parent of one of the children killed that day.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Unexpected citation by a New York Times columnist ...

As you can see, he's responding to a story in Slate about an Oklahoma woman who became so obsessed with the idea that the 2012 school shootings in Newtown, Connecticut were staged that she hounded the parents of the kids who were killed demanding that they prove their children existed in the first place.

Although I just remembered that Jamelle Bouie's fondness for Tolkien's work has been noticed before.

I notice that you link to Squire's post, even though it was really you who did the noticing.

I love that he says "Morgoth" instead of "Sauron" and the Shippey reference is a giveaway that he is much more than just a casual fan. Makes me want to send him an invitation to join HoF.

[N.E. Brigand]

Why, you ask? Because of a Texas Tribune story on "involuntary relocation".

[Frelga]

Minnesota legalizes low-dose pot edibles, to the surprise of GOP legislator

Five-milligram edibles are now available in stores under a new law, but one Republican lawmaker said he didn't know what he was voting for.

Screenshot_20220630-195157.png (312.21 KiB) Viewed 1805 times

[elengil]

Minnesota legalizes low-dose pot edibles, to the surprise of GOP legislator

Five-milligram edibles are now available in stores under a new law, but one Republican lawmaker said he didn't know what he was voting for.

Honesty, this is so insane - people in charge voting on things about which they have zero knowledge.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I moved the extended discussion that began with a post about Alabama attempting to legislate gender-affirming care to the already existing thread in Tol Eressëa Gender and threats to "Normality"

ETA: I also moved one post to Henneth Annun. Further posts on the subject will be deleted from this thread. Posts about the topic should be made in the Gender and threats to "Normality" thread. Posts about my moving the posts can be made in the new thread in Henneth Annun.

[Frelga]

WTF Ohio?

Ohio lawmaker wants to teach the Holocaust ‘from the perspective of the Nazis'

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That, sadly, may be the most on point post ever made in this thread

[N.E. Brigand]

Her comments are pretty stupid (two obvious errors in the quote below: "hundreds of thousands" rather than millions; and "different color of skin," which does not describe most Holocaust victims relative tot the people who killed them), but it doesn't appear that she's pushing racist views:

"What we do not want is for someone to come in and say, ‘Well, obviously the German government was right in saying that the Aryan race is superior to all other races, and therefore that they were acting rightly when they murdered hundreds of thousands of people for having a different color of skin.""

And while there's no need for the bill she was defending, the idea that students could better understand the Holocaust in part by getting "the perspective of a German soldier" doesn't seem insane to me. There is a 1984 German film and a 2002 British film -- the latter starring Kenneth Branagh and Stanley Tucci -- based on the minutes of the 1942 Wannsee conference at which the Final Solution was approved. Both were highly acclaimed. It's important to know why people did evil things, so we can prevent that evil from happening again.

[Cerin]

If the headline were accurate, I would agree that it was shocking. But it's inaccurate on two counts. Here is the headline, emphasis added:

'Ohio lawmaker wants to teach the Holocaust ‘from the perspective of the Nazis'

  
First, the bill isn't specifically advocating that the holocaust be taught from the perspective of the Nazis. The lawmaker was using the holocaust as an example (never a good idea) as she was attempting to explain the purpose of the bill. Second, she did not say 'from the perspective of the Nazis.' She was talking about individuals' experiences in the war, and she included, 'the perspective of a German soldier,' which is not quite the same thing as 'from the perspective of the Third Reich.'

I think the more accurate headline might be:

Ohio lawmaker suggests perspective of German soldier could be included in holocaust study.

This might be no less offensive to some, but at least it doesn't paint a false picture that someone is trying to promote the teachings of Hitler.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thanks, N.E.B. and Cerin. Servies me right for commenting based solely on a headline without reading the article. Mea culpa.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thanks, N.E.B. and Cerin. Serves me right for commenting based solely on a headline without reading the article. Mea culpa.

[Frelga]

Second, she did not say 'from the perspective of the Nazis.' She was talking about individuals' experiences in the war, and she included, 'the perspective of a German soldier,' which is not quite the same thing as 'from the perspective of the Third Reich.'

It is literally the same thing. The victims of Holocaust were not murdered by the "Third Reich", they were murdered by German soldiers, with the support of their fellow citizens. There is no need to humanize the murderers.

You also have to look at these remarks in the context of other laws passed or supported by Republican lawmakers, judiciary, and conservative school boards. The anti "CRT" laws that prohibit the teaching of the experiences of Black people in the US, the "don't say gay" laws in Florida, the criminalization of trans care.

And, remember, the recent removal of Maus from school curriculum.

In this context, no amount of weasel words is going to paint the both-siding of Holocaust as anything other than what it is - the centering of white Christian experience at the expense of its victims.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It is literally the same thing. The victims of Holocaust were not murdered by the "Third Reich", they were murdered by German soldiers, with the support of their fellow citizens.

As I know you know, the murders were largely conducted by Einsatzgruppen, special units specifically designed for that purpose, often with the assistance of the local population in the countries outside of Germany, more than with the assistance of the regular German soldiers. Most regular soldiers had some idea of what was going on, but they were mostly willfully ignorant rather than active participants. That doesn't make them innocent, but understanding why they stood aside and allowed what happened to happen is not unhelpful.

[Frelga]

Sorry, V, but no. It was, for example, your regular Luftwaffe that bombed the refugee train with my MIL and her family, and gunned down women and children as they were fleeing. It was the same Luftwaffe that bombed refugee ships leaving Odessa, killing half my FIL's family. Do we really need their perspective?

And, again, taken in the context of similar laws, decisions, and book banning, I don't for a moment believe that this would be a thoughtful study of how a country slides into fascism. Besides. We don't need to look back in time to see that.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, we do, just as we need the prospective of the Allied forces who firebombed Dresden. Or the crew members of the Enola Gay, and Bockscar, the planes that bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Frelga]

V, I do see where you are trying to take it, and there could be merit in going there in theory. But you keep ignoring the half of my posts that discusses the context of this both-siding, which makes it clear that this is not at all where it will go in practice.