News from Bree and other random discussions

[RoseMorninStar]

That was pretty cool elengil. And it just went up today!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I split off the discussion that yov started. You can find it at Back to the books (Nostalgia ain't like it used to be)

[Alatar]

Thanks

[Voronwë the Faithful]

[Jude]

Does anyone know if Athelas was based on a real plant?

[elengil]

This is an interesting article on exactly that.

http://middleearthnews.com/2014/02/18/i ... ife-plant/
And one of the more compelling points in it, beyond the quote at the beginning, is

The name Basil originates from the Greek language and means “king”, the plant itself, therefore, has used to be referred to as “king’s healing plant”. In German-speaking regions, Basil is still call “Königskraut” (Kingsherb)

That is not to say that Athelas necessarily is based on Basil, but the name arguably was.

[Jude]

Come to think of it, the aroma of fresh basil does match Tolkien's description of Athelas. But, as the article says, it does require a lot of sunlight to grow.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

There is a book called Flora of Middle-earth by botanist Walter Judd, which I do not own. But I do have a copy of the Tolkien Studies issue with a review of the book, and in that review Lynn Forest-Hill writes:

Walter Judd frequently notes the healing properties of primary world plants, such as nettles and marigolds, as he deals with them. He treats the fictional healing herb athelas similarly, under its vernacular name kingsfoil. The important combination of athelas with the hands of a king, while mentioned, ignores Tolkien’s juxtaposition, surely significant for Aragorn’s biography, of beliefs in the mythic power of kings to heal physically and metaphorically with Ioreth the healer’s comment on the inconspicuous appearance of the plant, “if I were a king, I would have plants more bright in my garden” (RK, V, viii, 140). In keeping with the rigidly scientific approach of Flora of Middle-earth there is, instead, lengthy speculation that the plant indicated might be comfrey (symphytum) or plantain (plantago). While these important healing herbs may illuminate the beneficial effect of athelas in terms of primary-world botany, the entry could have usefully noted that plantain was known as “waybread” (Gilliver, Marshall, and Weiner 208), and was one of the nine herbs recommended in the Anglo-Saxon healing spell against the nine flying venoms (Pettit 41).

There is another book called The Plants of Middle Earth: Botany and Sub-Creation by Dinah Hazell, who is not a botanist. Again, I do not own the book but have the issue of Tolkien Studies with a review of the book, and in that review Amy Amendt-Raduege writes:

The mallorn, niphredil, and athelas get almost no attention whatsoever. Ironically, these plants are not discussed precisely because they are imaginary: the author repeatedly states that she has no wish to infringe on the readers’ imagined re-creations of these magnificent plants.

[elengil]

Plantain doesn't really have much in the way of a 'flower'... I might be misled by memory of the movies, but wasn't Athelas meant to have a flower?

[Frelga]

Well, this is a take.

"The Lord of The Rings is about depression. You carry sadness around for so long that it starts to be the only thing that’s comfortable to you. And the thing that finally rids you of it is Gollum, who represents getting exercise."

Uncharacteristically, there are good, slightly tongue-in-cheek, replies in thread.
https://twitter.com/palmgeese/status/13 ... 35976?s=19

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

[Jude]

You know what I would really like? An edition of LOTR but published under the title "The Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King". Bonus points if it's issued in a beautiful red hardbook cover.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That would be great! It's kind of hard to believe that there never has been such an edition.

[Inanna]

Would it be legal? Maybe that’s why.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

If the Tolkien Estate authorized it, why would it not be legal? If the Tolkien Estate did not authorize it, it would not be able to be released under any name, or in any format.

[Inanna]

Good point.

That would be lovely to have.

[N.E. Brigand]

If the Tolkien Estate did not authorize it, it would not be able to be released under any name, or in any format.

At least not yet. When does The Lord of the Rings enter the public domain?

(And when would it have done so based on the laws that were in effect in Tolkien's lifetime?)

[Perhael]

At least not yet. When does The Lord of the Rings enter the public domain?

(And when would it have done so based on the laws that were in effect in Tolkien's lifetime?)

I was curious about this, so I did a search. The answer is complicated and depends upon the country, but it varies widely.

This site seems comprehensive and detailed: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questio ... ings#87321

There are other answers, but I couldn't find anything that simply said something like, “If you live in *this country* then *name of book* enters the public domain in *specific year.*

[N.E. Brigand]

Published in 1981, The Shores of Middle-earth by Robert Giddings and Elizabeth Holland is a notoriously risible book of Tolkien scholarship. Like the joint authors of a more recent series of Tolkien studies, Giddings and Holland believed that they had identified a secret key that explained Tolkien's work. In their case, explicitly intending to refute the claims by Tom Shippey (in his contribution to Scholar & Storyteller; this was before The Road to Middle-earth was published) that a number of Tolkien's themes have medieval sources, Giddings and Holland argued that Tolkien actually was cryptically retelling some works of Victorian literaure.

Having just read one of those 19th Century novels to which they refer, I did notice a whole bunch of similarities to Tolkien's work, some of them quite striking -- but as far as I can remember Giddings' and Holland's analysis, I don't think they mentioned any of the points that caught my eye. I'm going to have to get hold of a copy.

[N.E. Brigand]

Now I'd like to see a comparison The Lord of the Rings to Brecht's Galileo.

[N.E. Brigand]

"You talk as if a god had made the Machine ... I believe that you pray to it when you are unhappy. Men made it, do not forget that." That's from E.M. Forster's novella, The Machine Stops (1909), which I'd never heard of before that line was quoted in a lawsuit filed today. I wonder if Tolkien had read it. It reminds me of some things he wrote in "On Fairy-stories" and his letters.

(Oops. I see that a playwright I know adapted it for the stage, and his version was performed on Cleveland's public radio station about 15 years ago.)