Dune

[Alatar]

On a more serious note, I have seen a number of discussions about the failure to include any MENA actors among the major cast members, and more importantly, the white-washing or outright elimination of much of the Arabic/Islamic influence on the book, which is very apparent and Herbert was very open about. That is disappointing.

I can't agree with that.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I can only go by what I have read, since I haven't seen the film yet, but the lack of MENA actors in major roles is certainly a fact, and the avoiding of using Arabic words like jihad appears to be a fact. What part of it do you disagree with Al. The fact that it is true, or whether it is important?

[Inanna]

I can understand avoiding words like Jihad. It’s really a trigger in many people’s minds…

[Maria]

I don't know what a MENA actor is.

[Alatar]

I mean its certainly not "whitewashed". The film feels very culturally "ethnic", if you know what I mean. It doesn't feel Arabic, cause they're not Arabs, they're Fremen. But they're not white.

[elengil]

I don't know what a MENA actor is.

Middle-Eastern and Northern Africa. I don't know what the cast looks like on whole, but I don't recall there being any PoC actors in the previous movie so at least it's an improvement from before, even to great cries of "but that's not what they looked like in the book!"

I agree with Alatar in that in the books the Fremen weren't Arabic, the terminology Herbert used arguably wasn't used entirely correctly so removing it or changing it could be seen as correcting appropriations that rather than 'white washing'. Not exactly a black-and-white situation.

Not that the same people are involved in both arguments, of course, but I find it amusing verging on irritating that on one hand we have people upset (rightly or wrongly) with the lack of MENA actors in Dune, while simultaneously having people absolutely outraged at PoC characters in the Lord of the Rings series.

I appreciate the problem with this show in that if it was filmed in North Africa, there really should have had more local representation.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Here is one of several articles that I have read on the subject.

Dune Has a Desert Problem

[Frelga]

I dunno, seems like it would make sense to acknowledge the Arabia part of the "Lawrence of Arabia with space cocaine" premise.

[Alatar]

But its not Arabia. Its Arrakis. If this were a movie set in Iraq I could see their point, but its not. This is getting truly ridiculous. What is the point of acting if you can only play yourself. Sheesh.

[Inanna]

Or writing if you can only write your own perspective.

[Inanna]

However, that said, I remember being a bit upset that Ben Kingsley played Gandhi. But he was a *spectacular* Gandhi.

[Alatar]

I have less of a problem with the ethnicity of the actor and more with the actors ability to portray the role. For example, Tom Cruise in "Far and Away" was an appalling performance by an American playing an Irishman. Jamie Dornan in "Wild Mountain THyme" was an appalling performance of an Irishman playing an Irishman. Liam Neeson in "Michael Collins" was a superb performance of an Irishman playing an Irishman. Daisy Edgar Jones in "Normal People" was a superb performance of an English woman playing an Irish Woman.

It's all about the art. Not the ethnicity. *

*I realise these are all white people playing white people. But Dune is an example of brown people playing brown people. What "type" of brown shouldn't matter as long as they can pull off the role.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The ethnicity of the actors is only one issue, and not the major one, as the article that I posted makes clear.

[Alatar]

I read it, but unfortunately it's based on the assumption that because Herbert borrowed terms and archetypes from Arab culture, that Arrakis is Arabia. Which is just fundamentally flawed reasoning. By that logic, all of LotR should be viewed as a hodgepodge of Norse and Scandinavian myth and we should be complaining that Thorin wasn't a Viking. Its absurd.

[Maria]

I agree with Al.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I read it, but unfortunately it's based on the assumption that because Herbert borrowed terms and archetypes from Arab culture, that Arrakis is Arabia. Which is just fundamentally flawed reasoning. By that logic, all of LotR should be viewed as a hodgepodge of Norse and Scandinavian myth and we should be complaining that Thorin wasn't a Viking. Its absurd.

I don't read it quite that way. Rather, I read it as saying that Herbert borrowed terms and archetypes from Arab culture precisely because he was addressing issues that stem out of the Middle-east and that by avoiding those terms and archetypes the adaptation fails to properly address those issues. The problem with that argument is that what Herbert did was so multi-layered that it would be virtually impossible for an adaptation to capture all of those layers, and so there is always going to be something to complain of. Which is why I am withholding judgment until I get to see the film. But I think the issues raised in this any many other pieces are worth thinking about.

[Alatar]

The problem there is that Herbert never says that. The author is inferring.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Actually that isn't true. As that article points out, he said “My Arab friends wonder why it’s called science fiction. Dune, they say, is religious commentary.” He has talked at length about the spice being a stand-in for oil found in the Middle-east, and how the desert land of Arrakis is based on the deserts of the Middle-east.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

This is a good summary of Arabic and Islamic themes in Dune.

Arabic and Islamic themes in Frank Herbert's "Dune"

[Alatar]

Looking for any kind of identity-related representation in an entertainment product is always a fraught proposition, and as Karjoo-Ravary notes, “Herbert wasn’t a Muslim, and this isn’t a Muslim story. It is Herbert’s story, reflecting his time.”

And I'll leave it there. This sort of PC bashing just annoys me and I have better things to do with my time than spend it on things that make me annoyed.