Gender and threats to "Normality" (spilit from "The challenges ahead")

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Rodia
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Rodia »

The article can and should be dismissed as untrustworthy without reading. Frelga correctly described the host site as transphobic.
"Welcome to Canadian Gender Report
We’re a group of parents and professionals concerned about the medical transition of children, the introduction of gender identity teaching in our schools and the changing legal landscape that replaces biological sex with the subjective notion of gender self-identity."
They state it clearly. They are concerned about trans children getting treatment, schools talking about trans people existing, and the idea that biological sex is not equal to gender.

Genderreport.ca is not a site that can be referred to if we expect measured and fair consideration of trans topics. You might as well look for opinions about Tolkien on a site that says they are concerned with the popularity of the Hobbit books, the presence of fiction literature in schools, and the fact that bookstores sell fantasy books.
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River
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by River »

I found this paper on the relationship between gender incongruence in children and the autism spectrum from the list I linked. It's paywalled and I'm not about to hunt down the full text, but the abstract is pretty clean and clear. It's an interesting line of research.
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Eldy »

It's surreal that the "intellectual diversity" survey law is actually happening, but I suppose it's a natural step for an increasingly emboldened right which has resented universities for decades. The ghost of William F. Buckley approves.
River wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:20 pmI found this paper on the relationship between gender incongruence in children and the autism spectrum from the list I linked. It's paywalled and I'm not about to hunt down the full text, but the abstract is pretty clean and clear. It's an interesting line of research.
That research is consistent with my own experience of meeting a lot of people on the spectrum in the trans community. The most convincing explanation for this statistical overrepresentation that I've heard is that autistic people are more likely to already be questioning social norms and expectations, which is arguably a prerequisite to going through the process of understanding one's own gender identity and coming out. But I don't know how many researchers have come to that conclusion.
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by River »

It might be more than that but I'm struggling with how to articulate my thinking on this one. I've read and heard gender dysphoria described as being in the wrong body. Issues with propioception are common and can be serious enough to be disabling in the autistic population. So maybe gender incongruence is linked to that? Like it's a rather particular form of disordered propioception? I have no idea, I've just got that itchy feeling that there's a connection.
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Eldy »

Honestly, "feeling trapped in the wrong body" is a very crude description of gender dysphoria. It's considered an outdated concept in some contemporary trans thought, but remains the overwhelmingly most common understanding in the mainstream (i.e., cisgender) understanding of what it means to be trans, including official medical definitions. Because it's simple, striking, and much easier to describe than alternative understandings, plenty of trans people (myself included) still fall back on it at times, even if it doesn't describe their experience very well. Not to say that there aren't trans people who find it genuinely useful, because I know there are, but the wrong body model depends on a lot of concepts about the distinction between body and self, and about what makes bodies discretely male or female, that I personally find questionable. It also has the unfortunate effect of contributing to the elevation of medical transition as the centerpiece of what it means to be trans, whereas in practice, not all trans people choose medical transition, and not all who begin have the same end goals in mind.
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by River »

This might be a job for a poet, honestly. I think I see what you mean and apologize for causing any distress. I just couldn't find a better way to phrase it so I went with what others have used. "Being an alien in my own body" is also how I describe the coordination issues I struggled with into my early teens. It's not quite accurate but it gets the point across on the very rare occasion I need to explain myself (as an adult, I come off as clumsy but well within the stereotype for my profession so it's literally been years since I had to talk about this kind of thing).
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Eldy »

No, need to apologize at all! It's a complicated subject and I wish I was better at explaining it, though even if I was there'd be strong limits to how much I could speak about any individual experiences but my own. For me, I've only felt detached from my body during mild dissociative episodes, which is a (thankfully not very common) symptom of my depression and anxiety. As far as dysphoria goes, even at the worst points before coming out, I still felt like my body was my own—not that I was pleased about that. I can't really separate out my identity from my physical existence. I used to wonder what my life would be like if I'd been born as a cisgender girl, but I quickly concluded the question was meaningless, because that hypothetical person wouldn't be me. Fortunately, transitioning is one of the things that has contributed to making me feel more positive about the fact that it is me who gets to exist, rather than any one of the countless potential human beings that could have been born in my place.
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by elengil »

I post this with a disclaimer that while I understand exactly what this mother is expressing, I hate the idea of saying anti-trans sentiment only becomes bad when it affects non-trans kids. But I think it's important to point out - just like the concept of patriarchy hurts women but it also hurts men - anti-trans legislation does not only hurt trans-chidren but cis-children also (and honestly, can we just accept that legislation that actively hurts kids is bad, period!?)



I certainly would never allow such action to be taken against *any* child of mine - and while my extremely angry little heart would love to take this to the extreme of simply accusing every child, that would ultimately only be more damaging to the children. But I really hope that those parents figure their shit out and recognize that this is not good for any child, anywhere, ever.
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Eldy wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:29 pm No, need to apologize at all! It's a complicated subject and I wish I was better at explaining it, though even if I was there'd be strong limits to how much I could speak about any individual experiences but my own. For me, I've only felt detached from my body during mild dissociative episodes, which is a (thankfully not very common) symptom of my depression and anxiety. As far as dysphoria goes, even at the worst points before coming out, I still felt like my body was my own—not that I was pleased about that. I can't really separate out my identity from my physical existence. I used to wonder what my life would be like if I'd been born as a cisgender girl, but I quickly concluded the question was meaningless, because that hypothetical person wouldn't be me. Fortunately, transitioning is one of the things that has contributed to making me feel more positive about the fact that it is me who gets to exist, rather than any one of the countless potential human beings that could have been born in my place.
I would guess that trying to describe what it is like to a cisgender person is roughly (very roughly) like trying to describe the color red to someone who is colorblind.
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Frelga »

El, that's. Wow. This is the most WTF turn of events so far.

And yeah, this is a reminder that while ascending fascist regimes star by targeting minorities, ultimately everyone becomes fair game.

Recall that Niemöller, the first they came for guy, started out as a supporter of Hitler's antisemitic policies. And ended barely surviving Dachau.
His philosophy was a mixture of three famous schools -- the Cynics, the Stoics and the Epicureans -- and summed up all three of them in his famous phrase, 'You can't trust any bugger further than you can throw him, and there's nothing you can do about it, so let's have a drink."

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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Sunsilver »

Wow, Frelga, now, that I didn't know!
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Cerin »

elengil wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:35 pm anti-trans legislation does not only hurt trans-chidren
Or, it could save them from making premature, life-altering decisions they would come to regret.
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Frelga »

Cerin wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:23 pm
elengil wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:35 pm anti-trans legislation does not only hurt trans-chidren
Or, it could save them from making premature, life-altering decisions they would come to regret.
Do you support the mandated sexual abuse of every girl athlete in the name of potentially stopping one trans child from playing? Because that's what we are discussing right now.
His philosophy was a mixture of three famous schools -- the Cynics, the Stoics and the Epicureans -- and summed up all three of them in his famous phrase, 'You can't trust any bugger further than you can throw him, and there's nothing you can do about it, so let's have a drink."

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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Cerin »

Frelga wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:24 pm
Cerin wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:23 pm
elengil wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:35 pm anti-trans legislation does not only hurt trans-chidren
Or, it could save them from making premature, life-altering decisions they would come to regret.
Do you support the mandated sexual abuse of every girl athlete in the name of potentially stopping one trans child from playing? Because that's what we are discussing right now.
I was referring back to the post that started this discussion.

As for your question, I've scanned the posts and don't see anything referring to mandated sexual abuse, so not sure what you are talking about.
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Rodia
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Rodia »

The mandated sexual abuse is described just a couple of posts above in the image elengil posted. Indeed, the one you replied to when you quoted it.

How can you even say anti-trans legislation can save children? If it is anti-trans then it is dedicated to hurting trans children. You cannot decide that hurting trans children is acceptable in order to protect cis children.

And elengil's post shows that it hurts cis children too.
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by elengil »

Talking about preventing children from potentially 'premature, life-altering decisions they would come to regret' while outlawing abortion because 'premature, life-altering decisions they would come to regret' is apparently not a good enough reason to prevent it.

So just to be clear, it's okay to force a 10 year old child to bear another child, but not okay to allow a 10 year old child to delay puberty.

:nono:
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"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Cerin »

On my computer screen, elengil's post consists of two sentences at the top, a 4-inch gap, and two sentences at the bottom. If you refer to the text of that post, you will see that it is very vague, and gives no specifics about what she is referring to, so I still don't know what the 'mandated sexual abuse' was.
Rodia wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:12 pmHow can you even say anti-trans legislation can save children?
I don't subscribe to the label 'anti-trans.' I used it because that's the term being used here. Personally, I wouldn't call a policy that protects minors from the potentially permanent harms of hormones and puberty blockers, 'anti-trans.' I would call it 'pro-child.' I wouldn't call a policy that aims to protect people with ovaries from having to compete against people with testes, 'anti-trans.' I would call it 'pro-woman.' 

I can say that legislation barring hormone treatment to minors can save children, because there are known cases of people who later regret being given these treatments as minors. The increasing number of these people is one of the main reasons for Sweden's change of policy (the information I shared earlier).
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by River »

Cerin wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:03 pm On my computer screen, elengil's post consists of two sentences at the top, a 4-inch gap, and two sentences at the bottom. If you refer to the text of that post, you will see that it is very vague, and gives no specifics about what she is referring to, so I still don't know what the 'mandated sexual abuse' was.
Sticking fingers in a girl's vagina and pushing on her abdomen to find her sex organs because someone thinks she might be a boy. Aka a pelvic exam. There. Now you know why some parents of daughters in Ohio might give pause to enrolling their daughters in sports. I wouldn't want to if some rando could demand my daughter go through that because they're upset about something.
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Rodia
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Rodia »

It's not pro-child if it harms trans children. Consider that puberty blockers have and continue to be used on cis children when necessary- and the only time it's a concern is when they are used as a measure to improve a trans child's life.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/epnzjk/ ... -took-them

By all means, let's discuss the pros and cons of puberty blockers, but when this is coupled with 'concern over gender identity teaching in our schools and the changing legal landscape that replaces biological sex with the subjective notion of gender self-identity' then it's anti-trans.

Ovaries and testes- I appreciate the effort to not determine gender by these organs, however much it fails in the 'pro-woman' statement that follows. I'll assume that was a slip and not a suggestion that trans women are not women.
But the problem is that ovaries and testes are not what determines a person's success in sports. And unless every cis person is tested as thoroughly as trans people have to be before their own assessment of their gender is considered, then we have no reason to assume every cis woman is free of, say, internal testes, or has the average set of chromosomes, or has a level of testosterone comparable to the cis woman next to her.


What River just described is part of that policy- do you still consider it pro-woman? The panic over a trans woman having an advantage over cis women is leading to an absurd attempt to determine sex, which is doomed to fail as it is based on the assumption that all cis women have sex organs that fit into a very narrow description. As far as I recall you're a woman- you should not have to undergo invasive medical examinations to prove that to anyone.

Meanwhile, Caster Semenya, a cis woman, is having to battle against being forced to lower her natural testosterone as it is considered too high for her to compete with other women. And women with short hair who look too butch are being accosted in bathrooms. None of this mistrust of trans people is helpful to anyone.
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Eldy
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Re: Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

Post by Eldy »

The logic is quite simple. An adolescent who wants to go on HRT might turn out to be part of the small minority of people who later choose to detransition (a valid choice that some people make), in which case they need to be protected. Or they might turn out to be be in the large majority who stick with the decision to transition, which just means they'll grow up to be the sort of person children have to be protected from. So really, there's no contradiction!

/s
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