The Shadow of the Past - Gandalf's knowledge

[Halifirien]

Hello everyone!

So after rereading chapter II of book I, I stumbled upon something. Gandalf said he knew from the beginning Bilbo has a Great Ring (as plain it was). This obviously isn't corresponding with the favourite theory of lesser ring. No, Gandalf knew from the start he is dealing with Great Ring. But later in that chapter, he says all Great Rings are accounted for. It doesn't make sense to me.

This "problem" just bothers me more than it should. If dealing with a Great Ring, shouldn't Gandalf do something about it? And not wait 60+ years? Why didn't he ask Elrond for advice? I understand that Bilbo seemed fine with the ring and knowing its location was probably for the best, but still - by the process of elimination, he could have started to suspect Bilbo has the One much sooner, no?

And why was Gandalf concerned by Bilbo not aging? He knew he has a Great Ring - and these rings prolongs life. It's just weird to mee. I tried to ask on reddit, but nobody answered without the "lesser ring theory". Any help? If someone could explain to me this, I would really appreciate this. I don't want to say it is a plot hole, but it is in my opinion quite significant statement, which Tolkien didn't revise, so it must have been intentional. Thanks in advance!

[Jude]

Here are some preliminary thoughts:

When Gandalf said they were all accounted for, he was referring specifically to the Seven and the Nine. At this point he had already performed the test and confirmed that Frodo's Ring was indeed the One. He also said that he had begun to have vague suspicions when Bilbo first found the Ring, the same year that the Council drove the Necromancer out of Mirkwood. He also said that he did not know what he feared. Also, he said that he often wondered how Gollum had come by a Great Ring - which confirms that he didn't believe it was a Lesser Ring.

It was many years after the finding of the Ring that he said that the Seven and the Nine had been accounted for. When were they known to be accounted for? That may have been part of Gandalf's research during the gap between Bilbo's going-away party and his unexpected visit to Frodo seventeen years later.

So I think I've narrowed it down to two possibilities:

1. A possible plot inconsistency that slipped by unnoticed

2. Gandalf thought it was one of the Seven or the Nine, until Bilbo's disturbing behaviour after the farewell party alarmed him enough to track down what had happened to each of them, and also the known history of the One after the Last Alliance.

Also, welcome to the Board!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Hi, Halifirien, welcome to the Hall of Fire, and thank you for the question. It is something that I have also long wondered about. Of course, one can look to find an answer that fits within the story as written, and that is certainly a reasonable approach. However, I think the "true" answer is that it is a product of how the story developed from a simple sequel to The Hobbit to the darker, more sophisticated story that we know and love. The idea of the One Ring that ruled all the other rings, of the 19 Rings of Power, of greater rings and lesser rings, all developed slowly, over many different stages. Without tracing that development step-by-step, I will still say that it likely that Gandalf's statement that it was clear that Bilbo's ring was a "Great Ring" came from an earlier point in the development of the story, before the specifics of 9 rings for Men, 7 for Dwarves, 3 for Elves, and One for the Dark Lord, was solidified, and was never quite edited out.

[Halifirien]

Thanks for the answer Voronwë! It is hard to be convinced that it is some editing mistake, since Tolkien was very thorough and released revised versions of LOTR. I don’t know.
I think Jude’s second option is quite satisfying, however, I have follow-up question Jude - why do you think Gandalf just let Bilbo with one of the Great Rings? Shouldn’t he intervened sooner? What do you think?
Also, I am curious how others on this forum will reply! Thanks for great aswers!

[Alatar]

I think it could have conceivably been one of the Seven. Sauron recovered three and the other four were believed to be destroyed. Since the great Dwarf hoards were each thought to be based on one of the Seven and Bilbo found the Ring underground, and near to Khazad-dûm, it would seem like an obvious conclusion to jump to.

[Jude]

I think Jude’s second option is quite satisfying, however, I have follow-up question Jude - why do you think Gandalf just let Bilbo with one of the Great Rings? Shouldn’t he intervened sooner? What do you think?

I'm actually more confident about my answer for this one - Gandalf himself said that he had no right to force Bilbo to give him the Ring. And even if he did, to whom would he give it?

I think his only option was to do what he did - continue to observe, encourage Bilbo to use It as little as possible, and secretly ask his ranger friends to keep an eye on the Shire and protect it if needed.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I do think it is instructive to look at history behind this conversation. Tolkien first began to develop the idea of the Rings of Power in the course of drafting the chapter that then was called "Ancient History" and was the precursor of "The Shadow of the Past." At that point Frodo was still called Bingo. Here is draft where this idea first arises.

'Well anyway,' said Bingo. 'if Gollum could not be killed, I wish you had not let Bilbo keep the Ring. Why did he? Why did you let him? Did you tell him all this?'

'Yes, I let him,' said Gandalf. 'But at first of course I did not even imagine that it was [one] of the nineteen Rings of Power: I thought he had got nothing more dangerous than one of the lesser magic rings that were once more common - and were used (as their maker intended) chiefly by minor rogues and villains, for mean wickednesses. I was not frightened of Bilbo being affected by their power. But when I began to suspect that the matter was more serious than that, I told him as much as my suspicions warranted. He knew that it came in the long run from the Necromancer. But you must remember there was the Ring itself to reckon with. Even Bilbo could not wholly escape the power of the Ruling Ring. He developed - a sentiment. He would keep it as a memento. Frankly - he became rather proud of his Great Adventure, and used to look at the Ring now and again (and oftener as time went on) to warm his memory: it made him feel rather heroic, though he never lost his power of laughing at the feeling.

'But in the end it got a hold of him in that way. He knew eventually that it was giving him "long life", and thinning him. He grew weary of it - "I can't abide it any longer", he said - but to get rid of it was not so easy. He found it hard to bring himself to it. If you think for a moment: it is not really very easy to get rid of the Ring once you have got it.'

So, at this point, he does explicitly say that he originally thought that Bilbo's ring was one of the lesser rings. But he also already alludes to the point that Jude makes above. Getting rid of the Ring was hard, and for Gandalf to "force" Bilbo to do so would arguably violate the charge that the Istari were forbidden "to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear" (as it is put in Appendix B). Tolkien seemed to understand this and implicitly imply even back in this early drafting, long before he had any "inkling" of the history of the Istari.

[Frelga]

It would have to be one of the Seven, no? The Nine were accounted for. Although it is interesting to speculate what would have happened to a de-ringed Nazgûl.

Hm, or perhaps Gandalf wasn't positive that the Nine were all still in place until the Nazgûl rode out.

Personally, I think the Doylean explanation of an editing oversight to be the most likely. But it's fun to come up with a Watsonian theory

PS x-posted with Voronwë

[Jude]

I agree with Alatar and Frelga that one of the Seven would be the most obvious choice, based on what was known at the time. Although at the time, the Nazgûl had been dormant for years, so it was just conceivable that one of their rings had gone missing.

[scirocco]

This "problem" just bothers me more than it should. If dealing with a Great Ring, shouldn't Gandalf do something about it? And not wait 60+ years? Why didn't he ask Elrond for advice? I understand that Bilbo seemed fine with the ring and knowing its location was probably for the best, but still - by the process of elimination, he could have started to suspect Bilbo has the One much sooner, no?

I would use the “boiling frog” analogy. With the hindsight we have as readers, it's easy to say "Gandalf should have done more, earlier". But events unfolded slowly. There were many, many years of the status quo of Bilbo having this old curiosity that appeared not to be doing any harm.

Bilbo got back to the Shire with his “birthday present” in 2942.
A decade later, in 2953, Saruman (who at this stage is still a trusted member of the White Council), is proclaiming that the One Ring was lost in Anduin and has passed down the River to the Sea. At this stage, there is nothing to connect Bilbo's ring with the One Ring. Why worry about it? Gandalf has many other cares on his mind.

It's not until half a century later, in 3001, that an unusually youthful Bilbo leads Gandalf to start to suspect that Bilbo's ring might be a Ring of Power, maybe even the One Ring. It takes a further two decades (until 3017) for Aragorn to find Gollum and extract the story of the finding of the Ring from him, and to make the connection with Isildur's loss. Gollum has also revealed the Baggins / Ring connection to Sauron about this time. It's also about this time that Gandalf visits the Minas Tirith archives and for the first time discovers how to positively identify the One Ring by the fire writing.

So it's only at this point in 3017 that the situation is getting serious. Within a year, Gandalf has got Frodo away to Rivendell on the Quest in 3018. Reasonably prompt.

So there are nearly 70 years without much of a problem or reason for Gandalf to act. He does admit error for not being quicker on the uptake in the years immediately leading up to The Council of Elrond (not helped by the treason of Isengard). Gandalf isn't perfect. He makes errors of judgement.

Bilbo and Frodo had the Ring for around 70 years, without incident, and without solid evidence of it being the One Ring. The frog boiled slowly.

[Halifirien]

So, at this point, he does explicitly say that he originally thought that Bilbo's ring was one of the lesser rings. But he also already alludes to the point that Jude makes above. Getting rid of the Ring was hard, and for Gandalf to "force" Bilbo to do so would arguably violate the charge that the Istari were forbidden "to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear" (as it is put in Appendix B). Tolkien seemed to understand this and implicitly imply even back in this early drafting, long before he had any "inkling" of the history of the Istari.

Thanks for that passage! I didn't know about it! However, that is an early draft, which was changed to what we know from the book, where Gandalf says he knew it is a Great Ring. So why did Tolkien change it? It would be much easier with that previous version. Tolkien must had a reason to change that. I just don't it is an editing mistake, since he revised LOTR many times. So what it is then?

[Eldy]

Hi, Halifirien, welcome to HoF!

I'm afraid I don't have an explanation for you. I'd actually forgotten about Gandalf's comment in chapter I.2 that Bilbo's ring was clearly a Great Ring—I suppose I'd been infected by the brainworm that is the "lesser ring theory" you mention. In my defense, I think that theory makes a lot more sense. At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says:

'[...] The memory of words at the Council came back to me: words of Saruman, half-heeded at the time. I heard them now clearly
in my heart.

' "The Nine, the Seven, and the Three," he said, "had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read." (FOTR, II 2)

Gandalf is referring to the White Council meeting in which Saruman claimed the Ring had passed into the sea, which (as scirocco notes) is dated to III.2953 in Appendix B. So that's more than a decade after Gandalf first "wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was—that at least was clear from the first" (FOTR, I 2). I suppose we could assume that Gandalf, who was not a specialist in Ring-lore like Saruman, was previously unaware that all the Great Rings save the One bore a gem, since otherwise that knowledge combined with his belief that Bilbo's ring was a Great Ring would've left only one possibility as to its identity. Perhaps his initial questions about the provenance of Gollum's Ring had faded from his memory in the intervening decade. Yet Gandalf claimed to have thought "often" about that question, so it strains credulity for me that he had both pieces of knowledge needed to conclude the Ring was the One, yet failed to make that connection for decades. If Gandalf believed Gollum's ring was a lesser ring, then its lack of a gem would be of no consequence, and it would make sense why he only "half-heeded" Saruman's comment on the Great Rings' appearance, but that's clearly incompatible with Gandalf's account of his thought process in "The Shadow of the Past."

Maybe someone else can think of an in-universe explanation other than Gandalf having a chronic brain fart, but Tolkien was not perfect, so sometimes these things happen.

[Frelga]

I know someone will remember off the top of their head and save me a lookup. The White Council kicked the Necromancer out of Dol Guldur around the time of the Hobbit, without realizing that it was in fact Sauron. When did Gandalf find out that it was Sauron who moved back into Mordor? Until he did, as scirocco points out, a wait and see approach was not entirely unreasonable.

[Eldy]

Per Appendix B, the Wise began to fear the master of Dol Guldur was Sauron as early as III.2060 and Gandalf confirmed this was the case in III.2850, about ninety years before the White Council assaulted Dol Guldur and Sauron fled.

[scirocco]

I suppose we could assume that Gandalf, who was not a specialist in Ring-lore like Saruman, was previously unaware that all the Great Rings save the One bore a gem, since otherwise that knowledge combined with his belief that Bilbo's ring was a Great Ring would've left only one possibility as to its identity. Perhaps his initial questions about the provenance of Gollum's Ring had faded from his memory in the intervening decade. Yet Gandalf claimed to have thought "often" about that question, so it strains credulity for me that he had both pieces of knowledge needed to conclude the Ring was the One, yet failed to make that connection for decades.

As you posted previously, Gandalf admits at the Council of Elrond to overlooking the gem situation that Saruman explained with the Great Rings. So from 2851, when the White Council met, and Saruman revealed the information about the gems, it was 150 years until Gandalf recalled those words again. He didn't recall them until Bilbo's long life started to raise suspicions in 3001.

In fact, from the White Council in 2851 until Bilbo comes back again in 2942, there's 90 years of a situation where the One Ring is simply not on the radar and Gandalf was probably not even thinking about it. I think we can cut him some slack for forgetting Saruman's words nearly a century ago.

From a story-external point of view, you can say this lacks some credibility. Having said that, I have trouble remembering what I did yesterday, so I don't mind cutting Gandalf a bit of slack for 150 years!

He's an Istari, he's got a lot of years of memories to store...

[Eldy]

So from 2851, when the White Council met, and Saruman revealed the information about the gems, it was 150 years until Gandalf recalled those words again. He didn't recall them until Bilbo's long life started to raise suspicions in 3001.

In fact, from the White Council in 2851 until Bilbo comes back again in 2942, there's 90 years of a situation where the One Ring is simply not on the radar and Gandalf was probably not even thinking about it.

Saruman's comment about the Rings and their gems was most likely made during the White Council meeting of III.2953, the one in which he "feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea" (LOTR, Appendix B). This is twelve years after Bilbo acquired the Ring. I don't recall exactly when Gandalf got the full story of its acquisition out of Bilbo (he gave an edited account to the Dwarves while they were traversing Mirkwood, but Gandalf was absent at that point), but I don't think it's unreasonable to suppose it occurred within twelve years, given Gandalf's comment that the Ring being a Great Ring was "clear from the first." And while I agree the One was probably not weighing heavily on Gandalf's mind, by his own account in "The Shadow of the Past," Gandalf "wondered often" how Gollum had come into possession of a Great Ring, so I don't think it's unreasonable to question why he didn't make the connection when Saruman described the One in terms—"round and unadorned"—that perfectly matched Bilbo's Ring.

That's not to say this is a plot hole per se, because obviously people overlook things all the time and Gandalf is not infallible, but it's still a bit odd. If Gandalf had stated that he simply wrote off the matter of Bilbo's ring because it seemed unimportant, then I wouldn't find any of his actions unreasonable in the context of what he knew at the time, but he apparently did the opposite. The curious thing to me is that this is not a relic of an earlier conception, but something that was added in revision, since (per Voronwë's quote) Gandalf did write off Bilbo's Ring as one of the lesser rings in an early draft.

[Halifirien]

Well Gandalf remembered these words, that all Great Rings have gem, while hunting Gollum, not when Bilbo raised suspicion. I am very curious what Voronwë has to say about this whole discussion - mostly about my questions on his reply. Great discussion here.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not sure I have that much more to say, other than agreeing that this is a great discussion and that I am enjoying reading everyone's thoughts.

So, at this point, he does explicitly say that he originally thought that Bilbo's ring was one of the lesser rings. But he also already alludes to the point that Jude makes above. Getting rid of the Ring was hard, and for Gandalf to "force" Bilbo to do so would arguably violate the charge that the Istari were forbidden "to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear" (as it is put in Appendix B). Tolkien seemed to understand this and implicitly imply even back in this early drafting, long before he had any "inkling" of the history of the Istari.

Thanks for that passage! I didn't know about it! However, that is an early draft, which was changed to what we know from the book, where Gandalf says he knew it is a Great Ring. So why did Tolkien change it? It would be much easier with that previous version. Tolkien must had a reason to change that. I just don't it is an editing mistake, since he revised LOTR many times. So what it is then?

The answer is I don't know why he changed it; I think it made more sense the way that he originally had it! When I get a chance I'll take another look at the relevant part of HoME and see if I can find anything that suggests why he made that curious decision.

[scirocco]

Saruman's comment about the Rings and their gems was most likely made during the White Council meeting of III.2953, the one in which he "feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea" (LOTR, Appendix B).

During the Council of Elrond, Gandalf doesn't make it clear in which of the White Council meetings (2851, 2941 and 2953) Saruman imparted the gemstone/ Ring of Power information. Gandalf seems to be presenting information from multiple White Council meetings; for example, Saruman is referred to as "repeating what he had said to us before, that the One would never again be found".

The case for the gemstone information coming out in the 2851 meeting is that Gandalf's visit to Dol Guldur where he found Thrain, who had been forced to give up the last of the Dwarf-rings, was recent. Rings of Power in general could well have been a hot topic. Saruman was already starting to search for the One and can be assumed to be well-informed about ring-lore in general by this time. Long before Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldur, Saruman "probed deeper into the lore of the Rings of Power and the art of their forging" (taken from Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age).

Whereas a century later in 2941 and 2953, only the One Ring was at issue. And by then Saruman was doing his best to play down all Ring related discussion. Why would he bring up details that might re-kindle interest in it?

But I wouldn’t claim it's conclusive.

[narya]

My memory of these things is pretty sketchy, but didn't the bearers of the Three Rings sense when the One Ring was around, and didn't Círdan give Narya to Gandalf?