War between Hamas and Israel

The place for measured discourse about politics and current events, including developments in science and medicine.
Post Reply
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

N.E. Brigand wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:26 pm "Jared Kushner says Gaza's 'waterfront property could be very valuable'"; he said this during an interview with a Harvard professor eleven days ago, adding "from Israel's perspective I would do my best to move the people out" (he suggested moving them to the Negev desert in Israel) "and then clean it up." Would the current residents be allowed to return to Gaza after that work is done? He says, "I don't think that Israel has stated that they don't want the people to move back there afterwards." To me, that phrasing implies that Kushner has talked to Israeli officials about the possibility of this plan coming to fruition, but when prodded, he said he was just speculating. But he also said, "I am not sure there is much left of Gaza at this point. If you think about even the construct, Gaza was not really a historical precedent [sic]. It was the result of a war. You had tribes in different places and then Gaza became a thing. Egypt used to run it and then over time different governments came in." And he apparently dismissed the idea of Palestinian statehood as something that "would essentially be rewarding an act of terror".
In light of the information above, this is notable:

User avatar
RoseMorninStar
Posts: 12976
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:07 am
Location: North Shire

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by RoseMorninStar »

Viewed through the lens of Kushner's comments and knowing there was a meeting, the enforced ghetto-hood and the starving the people of Gaza raises suspicion that the annihilation of it's people has been intentional &/or planned. Gaza's people are being liquidated, as Masha Gessen stated in an excellent and controversial essay in The New Yorker in December.

Al Jazeera has a [url=https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform ... ve-tracker] live tracker.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

I am not entirely unsympathetic to this argument:
You don't care about Palestine. How do I know? One word: Myanmar.

Myanmar has been locked in a brutal civil war for over three years. 20 million people desperately need humanitarian aid. 15 million people face acute food insecurity. 1.6 million have been displaced from their homes. 55,000 civilians buildings have been destroyed. By 2022 over 13,000 children were reported to have been killed. A stunning number of brutal war crimes have been reported including massacres of civilians followed by the burning of their bodies, as well as constant military strikes targeting civilians and children. This includes a military strike on a church just 3 months ago in which 17 civilians were killed including 9 children. The UN Special Rapporteur on Myanmar said that "Many in Myanmar have come to the conclusion that the world has forgotten them, or simply doesn’t care".

This is the sad reality. There is no global movement to boycott Myanmar. There are no protests in western cities. There are no sit-ins or rallies to be found on college campuses. Myanmar is just one example of the many terrible and horrifying things going on in the world today. ...
However, one thing is unsaid in that rant (of which I've shared only about the first half): the U.S. doesn't have a special relationship with Myanmar and isn't supplying that nation with anything like the financial aid and armaments that the U.S. has made available to Israel.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
In an interview today, Donald Trump was coy on the subject of Israel. He twice refused to offer a full-throated endorsement of Israel when prompted by conservative talk show host Hugh Hewitt, and noting that Israel is "absolutely losing the PR war" (adding "they shouldn't be putting out tapes" of "building falling down" -- and by "they," he apparently means Israel), he encouraged Israel to conclude its operations, saying "get it over with and let's get back to peace and stop killing people" but also "they have to get it done" and "you've got to have victory." Is he encouraging Israel to give up or to strike even harder? I don't know.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
U.S. Senator Chris Coons, centrist Democrat of Delaware, said on CNN this morning that "we're at that point" where the United States must attach conditions to its financial and military support for Israel.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken "said in a press conference [early this afternoon] that the situation in Gaza is unacceptable and the attack on World Central Kitchen workers should be the last one. 'If we don't see the changes we need to see (in Israeli policy), there will be a change in our policy,' Blinken said."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu spoke today. I've seen it described an a "tense" call that lasted about a half-hour. Here's the White House summary:
President Biden spoke by telephone with Prime Minister Netanyahu. The two leaders discussed the situation in Gaza. President Biden emphasized that the strikes on humanitarian workers and the overall humanitarian situation are unacceptable. He made clear the need for Israel to announce and implement a series of specific, concrete, and measurable steps to address civilian harm, humanitarian suffering, and the safety of aid workers. He made clear that U.S. policy with respect to Gaza will be determined by our assessment of Israel's immediate action on those steps. He underscored that an immediate ceasefire is essential to stabilize and improve the humanitarian situation and protect innocent civilians, and he urged the Prime Minister to empower his negotiators to concludde a deal without delay to bring the hostages home. The two leaders also discussed public Iranian threats against Israel and the Israeli people. President Biden made clear that the United States strongly supports Israel in the face of those threats.
Commentators are noting that this is the first time that President Biden didn't link the call for a ceasefire to the release of hostages. That said, when the President tweeted about this subject today, he said Israel "must implement steps to address civilian harm and the safety of workers – and work toward a ceasefire to bring hostages home."

As regards Iran, today Israel told the U.S. that if Iran launches a retaliatory attack on Israeli soil for the Iranian Revolutionary Guard officers that Israel killed in Syria earlier this week, Israel will respond forcefully.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I wonder to what degree Hamas's Oct. 7th attack, which as I've said before I believe was carried out to goad Israel into an overreaction, was planned specifically Bejamin Netanyahu's position in mind. There were enormous protests against Netanyahu last year for his Trump-like efforts to mold that nation's judiciary into an organ that would protect him from prosecution, i.e., he has reasons to act desperately and irrationally.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Later today, the "Israeli security cabinet approved the opening of the Erez crossing with the Gaza strip for the first time since Oct. 7 ... to allow more humanitarian aid to go in".
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

Worth noting ("because good news never goes viral"): "The final Friday prayers this Ramadan passed peacefully in Jerusalem. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims worshipped at Al-Aqsa over the course of the month. Spoiler actors did not succeed in provoking violence. None of this was a given."
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

New reporting from Haaretz, the 106-year-old liberal-leaning Israeli newspaper, suggests my take on Hamas's motivation for Oct. 7th -- that the terrorist organization hoped to provoke an overreaction from Israel that would drive a wedge between Israel and other nations -- is wrong:

"Hamas Actually Believed It Would Conquer Israel. In Preparation, It Divided the Country into Cantons."

But there's lots more in that long article based on interviews with wealthier Palestinians who managed to flee Gaza to Egypt.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

Yesterday 322 food trucks crossed into Gaza, the "highest daily number of aid trucks that entered the enclave since October 7."

Until today, when 419 food trucks entered Gaza.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

The Times of Israel, whose coverage is said to skew center-right, quotes Donald Trump as saying that President Biden is "100% on the Palestinians' side" and saying "I don't get how Jews vote Democrat."

Edited to note that a different source is quoting Trump as saying, "Any Jewish person that votes for Biden does not love Israel and frankly, should be spoken to."
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 46229
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

N.E. Brigand wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 12:04 am Yesterday 322 food trucks crossed into Gaza, the "highest daily number of aid trucks that entered the enclave since October 7."

Until today, when 419 food trucks entered Gaza.
Both numbers are still well below the minimum number necessary to avert disaster.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
User avatar
RoseMorninStar
Posts: 12976
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:07 am
Location: North Shire

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by RoseMorninStar »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 2:42 pm
N.E. Brigand wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 12:04 am Yesterday 322 food trucks crossed into Gaza, the "highest daily number of aid trucks that entered the enclave since October 7."

Until today, when 419 food trucks entered Gaza.
Both numbers are still well below the minimum number necessary to avert disaster.
That is mind boggling. And sad.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

Bret Stephens, a conservative columnist at the New York Times (and who is disliked by many liberals), has a hawkish new column with a twist:

"Netanyahu Must Go."
Israel must destroy Hamas as a military and political force in the territory while minimizing harm to civilians. It must do what it can to rescue its hostages without jeopardizing the overriding goal of destroying Hamas. It must, by diplomacy or force, push Hezbollah back from Lebanon’s southern border, so that 60,000 Israelis can return safely to their homes in the north. It must take the battle directly, as it did last week in Damascus, to Hamas’s and Hezbollah’s patrons, whether in Syria, Qatar or Iran.

And for all of that to happen effectively, Benjamin Netanyahu must go.
Stephens compares Netanyahu to William Westmoreland, the U.S. Army Chief of Staff whose policy of escalation in the Vietnam War came to be viewed as disastrous.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

About three hours ago, Iran reportedly launched hundreds of drones in an attack on Israel. Apparently it's a nine-hour flight (over Iraq and Syria or Jordan), so any strikes are unlikely to happen for another six hours. The U.S. has already shot down some drones over Iraq. I've seen reports indicating that the expected target is the Golan Heights. Some observers believe this attack may be meant as a face-saving measure by Iran after Israel killed seven Iranian Revolutionary Guard officers in Syria a few weeks ago. Or it could launch a full scale war. Russia has used many of the same kind of drones in its attack on Ukraine: literally purchased from Iran.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

Reportedly Jordan's air force shot down some of the Iranian drones en route to Israel. Also reading that Iran also launched some missiles, most of which were shot down by Israel's counter-missiles, but some of which struck an Israeli military base causing some minor damage. And apparently an Iranian envoy at the United Nations has said that they will consider the matter closed unless Israel retaliates. (Mind you, some Congressional Republicans have already called tonight for the United States to attack Iran.)*

*Edited to add this comment by the historian Kevin Kruse about one of those Republicans, Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee:

"Every time I see her spouting off on major issues I can't help but remember her as 'that lady who once helped organize my mom's closets as a prize she won in a contest.'"

He means that literally: Blackburn got her start as an image consultant.
Last edited by N.E. Brigand on Sun Apr 14, 2024 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

About an hour ago: "IDF lifts order for Israelis to stay near safe rooms, indicating Iran attack over for now."

(This means the drones arrived faster than the nine-hour timeline I mentioned above.)
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

Donald Trump tonight said President Biden isn't strong enough in his support for Israel, but Trump's supporters apparently feel Biden is too supportive of Israel?



Edited to note this interpretation: maybe they're using "genocide" as a verb? Meaning they want to kill the president?
Last edited by N.E. Brigand on Sun Apr 14, 2024 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 22512
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by Frelga »

The US reneged on its promises of helping Ukraine and now everyone and their dog are going to call our bluff, and keep escalating until we have no choice but to put American boots on the ground somewhere.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

The United States "intercepted more than 70 Iranian drones and at least 3 ballistic missiles" that were launched toward Israel tonight. And there is some indication that American diplomacy played a role in getting Jordan to help defend Israel. But President Biden has warned Prime Minister Netanyahu that the U.S. will not support an Israeli counter-attack on Iran. Biden has also told aides that he fears Netanyahu is trying to drag the U.S. into a broader conflict.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

Iranian state TV broadcast footage tonight that it claimed showed that it's drone and missile attack had successfully destroyed targets in Israel, but the video actually is old and shows a fire in Texas.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

Hobart & WIlliam Smith Colleges in Geneva, New York have removed a professor from the classroom for writing an essay that celebrated the Oct. 7th attacks. Even people criticizing the colleges for sidelining the professor allow that what she wrote was "bloodthirsty." Still, the standards of academic freedom say she should not be prevented from doing her job for personal political speech -- and I do appreciate the dangerous slippery slope that could follow -- but I wonder: suppose Hamas had launched an attack in upstate New York, with the aim of hurting Israel's supposed master, the United States, and some students at these colleges were killed. If this professor, again on her own time, wrote an essay celebrating the audacity of that attack and called it "exhilarating," as she did of Oct. 7th, then in terms of academic freedom, I can't see how that would that be any different than what she did. And I think her students would be right to fear her. At the very least, even in this real case, if she is allowed to continue teaching, and I guess she should be, then I think there should be an armed guard in her classroom for the rest of her career to make sure she can't attack her students. Probably posted outside her office door too.
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 46229
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Hobart and William Smith is my sister's alma mater so I am pretty familiar with it. While I understand the academic freedom argument, I don't think the administration had any real choice in the matter. Student safety trumps academic freedom.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 7090
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: War between Hamas and Israel

Post by N.E. Brigand »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2024 9:55 pm Hobart and William Smith is my sister's alma mater so I am pretty familiar with it. While I understand the academic freedom argument, I don't think the administration had any real choice in the matter. Student safety trumps academic freedom.
Small world! The son of a very close friend is a freshman there now. I'd never heard of "The Colleges" before he enrolled.
Post Reply