Why did Frodo refuse to fight?

[MithLuin]

But it is also possible to see the why and the deeper meaning in Gollum's presence at the Crack of Doom, rather than in his fall into the Fire.

[axordil]

Cerin--

You're assuming perfect rationality on Frodo's part. Rationally speaking, of course he couldn't destroy the ring, so he did the best he could, the best anyone could. But I don't think his guilt has a rational basis...most guilt doesn't. No one likes coming to grips with their own weaknesses, especially when people are depending on them. Frodo had his own mortal limitations rather forcefully demonstrated to him, when everyone on the planet was depending on him.

Given everything else that he had gone through, I think it's unreasonable to expect him to be reasonable.

[Primula Baggins]

I agree that Frodo's failure was in his own eyes. I've said before that his heroism, what he was rightly praised for doing, was getting to the Cracks of Doom (with Sam's help, but through his own will) and making the destruction of the Ring possible, even though he didn't and couldn't carry it out himself.

Alatar, I don't see the ending as a deus ex machina at all. Seeing Eru's will behind it doesn't mean it was easily accomplished, or the Eagles would have taken care of it right after the Council of Elrond. But "small hands" did the deed, in part I think because Eru doesn't work in the world the way people like Boromir probably wished he would. It's not some grand display of divine power; it's subtle and risky and depends on people being "better than themselves."

[vison]

"It's not some grand display of divine power; it's subtle and risky and depends on people being "better than themselves." "

I think any display of divine power is "grand", that there is nothing subtle or risky about it.

I always thought, and forgive me if I'm saying what someone else has said, that when Frodo made Gollum promise and said if he broke his promise he would be cast into the fire, that's why Gollum had to go into the fire with the Ring. It was the Ring's power that did it, or rather Frodo's power as the Ringlord.

It never occurred to me that God had anything to do with it. In my view of Middle Earth, there was no divine intervention, although I admit Gandalf's return caused me many a headache.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It was the Ring's power that did it, or rather Frodo's power as the Ringlord.

Why would the Ring cause its own destruction? And how could Frodo have been the Ringlord when Gollum had taken the Ring away from him?

I would also ask "why would Tolkien call Frodo an "instrument of providence" if there were no divine intervention, but I know that some don't trust that Tolkien was being truthful when he described his own intentions

[Cerin]

'Precious, precious, precious!' Gollum cried. 'My Precious! O my Precious!' And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell.

Does that really sound to anyone like the menacing power of the Ring exerting its influence? I mean, surely if the author had wished to convey the presence of the Ring's power in that moment, he could/would have done so?

It sounds to me like Gollum was careless in his gloating, stepped too far out, and fell.

eta: good points, Ax. I agree that it is unreasonable to expect Frodo to have reacted reasonably at that point.

[MithLuin]

One of the great things about Tolkien is that he crafted (and told) his story so realistically.

There is cause and effect, certainly, and he hints at the actions of Providence. But he does not tell us (anywhere) "and then God did this" except in the Eä! that created the world. (Well, some of his interactions with the Valar are pretty specific, I guess).

But that is how Providence works in the real world. Looking back, you see that you were helped and guided along. That all those awful things that happened led you somewhere you never could have gotten otherwise. That that stupid mistake you made was not fatal, in the end.

(All of this presupposes you made it through, of course ).

But you cannot (easily) point at a particular event and say "God did that." And certainly not at the time. Providence is generally seen in the bigger picture, not in the details.

I think it cool that of the three possible explanations for 'why did Gollum take a little tumble off the cliff,' we have people who have considered each of them to be the 'best' answer to the story. If Tolkien were more explicit, we couldn't do that. It is very Providential that the Ring is destroyed, and God is at work there - but it could be explained in various ways.

But you can really defend:

• 1) It was an accident - Gollum was really distracted, and the Cracks of Doom are very dangerous. Providence just set up the three players; gravity did the rest.
  
  2) The Ring destroyed itself. Pity allowed Gollum to be on hand, and the power of the Ring made him fall.
  
  3) God did it. Pity allowed Gollum to be on hand, and Frodo's warning was a doom or prediction or fate. When Gollum acted despite that, he brought about his end and God made him slip.

I do not think these are equally 'right' - I think Tolkien had a good idea in his mind what was happening here. But I also think that the explanation is underneath the story, so we can see it from different angles.

[Alatar]

I vote for 1.

I agree with everything you said Prim, except if you think its ok after all that for God to "make Gollum slip". If he's going to intervene directly (and making Gollum fall is direct intervention) he might as well have struck it with lightning at the Council of Elrond. It cheats everyone else out of the sacrifices they made if God steps in at the end and finishes the job.

[vison]

I vote for 1.

I agree with everything you said Prim, except if you think its ok after all that for God to "make Gollum slip". If he's going to intervene directly (and making Gollum fall is direct intervention) he might as well have struck it with lightning at the Council of Elrond. It cheats everyone else out of the sacrifices they made if God steps in at the end and finishes the job.

Exactly!

Whereas, you see, since this is a story about a Magic Ring with Great Power, for the Ring to influence events makes perfect sense.

I don't think the Ring was trying to destroy itself. I think it was seeking the place where it came from and where belonged: in the Fire.

[Primula Baggins]

But Alatar, saying that the destruction of the Ring is in accordance with Eru's will is not saying that the Pinkie of God nudged Gollum over the edge. That would be a cheat. Believing that Eru had a plan for Middle-earth doesn't turn everyone into a robot. For the Ring to be destroyed, a lot of people had to make choices, and Frodo had to allow himself to be broken.

It's possible to see the will of Eru under the events of the story (as Mith said), but you don't have to see it there. That isn't how it works in what I believe to be the real world; the fact that I believe in God doesn't mean I can float along unthinking through a clockwork universe. If you believe that God acts in the world, if you believe that Eru acted in Middle-earth, you have to believe that the mechanism of that action was people and the choices that they freely made.

[JewelSong]

Ah...the days of Frodo's Kitchen! How this discussion brings it all back!

Those were some great posts...and the "kitchen ladies" are still some of my best friends!

[superwizard]

I vote for 1.

Well I do too but you see what's so great about discussing this is that I never even thought of 2 or 3 being a possibility.

[axordil]

The pinkie of God...

Does anyone else suspect that Gollum had a subconscious death wish? That his yearning for death was only superceded by his desire for the ring, and once that was accomplished, he got a little too carefree in his backflips on the edge of a precipice because at some level he knew it couldn't last?

[MithLuin]

Nah, Éowyn had a death wish.

Gollum just knew his death was inevitable. Like someone who is holed up with hostages and surrounded by a SWAT team, he knows there is no way out of this. But I don't think he was honest enough with himself to realize that. With the Ring, he could be King Gollum and eat fish three times a day.

But it does introduce the fourth choice

• 4) Gollum died on purpose.

[axordil]

"On purpose" seems a little strong...he could have never consciously chose to jump. But he could subconsciously not care how close he and his precious were to the edge.

[superwizard]

Does anyone else suspect that Gollum had a subconscious death wish? That his yearning for death was only superceded by his desire for the ring, and once that was accomplished, he got a little too carefree in his backflips on the edge of a precipice because at some level he knew it couldn't last?

No, I don't think so I mean when we heard stinker and slinker, stinker was talking about becoming all powerful and strong. Had he not fallen Gollum would have claimed the ring as his own just as how Frodo did.

[axordil]

I'm under the impression that the Slinker/Stinker dichotomy was a product of NOT having the ring, but having it near enough to touch, and having sworn on it not to try to take it. At the end there was just Gollum, who, while he had fantasized about what he would do if he had the ring again, really only desired to have it for its own sake, because not having it was worse torture than having it...which was worse than dying.

Again, the thought could never consciously manifest itself in Gollum's mind, of course.

[MithLuin]

• 4) Gollum fell because really, he didn't mind dying so much.

[axordil]

[Alatar]

But Alatar, saying that the destruction of the Ring is in accordance with Eru's will is not saying that the Pinkie of God nudged Gollum over the edge. That would be a cheat. Believing that Eru had a plan for Middle-earth doesn't turn everyone into a robot. For the Ring to be destroyed, a lot of people had to make choices, and Frodo had to allow himself to be broken.

I agree with all that Prim. What I disagree with is those who suggest that the "hand of God" caused Gollum to slip and fall.