Why did Frodo refuse to fight?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I can only speak to how I interpret it, since (as you know) it is a passage that is open to multiple interpretations. I would say that it is Frodo's will that is speaking, but enlarged and distorted by the Ring. And that "me" does refer to Frodo, not the Ring.

[Primula Baggins]

I agree. If that was the Ring speaking, it would be the only place. And for me it would greatly reduce the Ring's menace and power to have it suddenly making prophecies at this climactic moment. (The "voice of the Ring" doesn't bother me in the film because we hear it from the start. But in the book the Ring works much better as a silent, inimical presence, I think.)

Whereas, if those are Frodo's words, then it is a terrifyingly changed Frodo—which works brilliantly at this point.

[axordil]

It is Frodo's voice. It is no longer entirely Frodo's will behind it, but Frodo is, at this juncture, no longer capable of realizing that. It's not that he's a sock puppet for the Ring so much as his will, his sense of self, has been corroded away and elbowed aside to the point where he really thinks he, himself, is speaking...just as he thinks it is his decision to put the ring on a few moments later in the Sammath Naur.

And it is, but it isn't. Because at that moment there is no distinction between Frodo and the Ring: all that Frodo is, is the Ring. It fills him. It sustains him. The analogy of the inverted Mass mentioned before is precise at that moment: putting on the Ring is an anti-Eucharist.

Of course it also betrays him, as it betrays all save its master. That's because as a dark inversion of the Eucharist, it was designed to be a communion only of Sauron with Sauron, a sealed hermeneutic circle within which all physical creation was to reside (in Sauron's view). In the Eucharist, Christ is (on several levels) in us. With the Ring, we are in Sauron.

[Athrabeth]

Thanks for finding those posts from the TORC thread, Mith. I especially enjoyed reading metchild's thoughts......they brought back memories of our conversations in Teremia's "m00bies Reads the Books".

it would greatly reduce the Ring's menace and power to have it suddenly making prophecies at this climactic moment

Whether it is the will of Frodo or the will of the Ring, for me, interpreting the words as some kind of foretelling or prophesy just doesn't feel right. I'm not exactly sure why, but as near as I can explain it, it seems that at this point in the book, we (along with the characters) are finally entering the realm of "cosmic determination", of divine intervention, where all possibilities within the infinite thought of Eru will permeate the moment. There is only one certainty - Frodo will fall - but beyond that fall, the fates of all three characters (Frodo, Gollum and Ring) are being held solely by the hand of providence. To me, the prescience of any part of these fates, even by one as "heightened" and changed as Frodo, seems to diminish the profound mystery of what will unfold at the Cracks of Doom.

It's why I prefer to interpret the words as a curse. If taken in this context, they change from an enlightened glimpse into the designs of Eru (which somehow just feels wrong coming from the corrupted mind/will of either the Ring or Frodo) to a self-serving, self-important proclamation of doom that arrogantly assumes control of what "will be". Could the curse originate within Frodo's own "enlarged and distorted" will? I suppose so. The opinions here supporting the premise that "the voice" is Frodo's are compelling. But if so, the words lose, IMHO, the absolutely delicious irony of providential justice that is revealed if the will of the Ring is "speaking".

The Ring, after all, is the ultimate betrayer in the tale - it's very creation is an act of betrayal, its very purpose is the attainment of power through treachery. It betrayed Isildur and Gollum and is about to betray Frodo, a living symbol of the inherent "goodness" of the Children of Ilúvatar. For its proclamation of doom to turn upon itself, to essentially set up its own "self-betrayal" unknowingly through the unfathomable design of Eru......well, it just feels so "right and proper", as Sam might say, recalling the words of Gandalf to Pippin in Minas Tirith: "Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend".

in the book the Ring works much better as a silent, inimical presence, I think

But it does have a distinctly sentient will as part of that presence. I guess I don't interpret "the voice" as actually being audible (either to "ear" or "mind"). It's more like Sam is perceiving that sentience, in a split second of time; like he is gifted with a sight that allows him (and so of course, us) to see, frozen in the merest of moments, the connecting point between the last intrinsically individual elements of Ring, Frodo, and Gollum, which seals their interwoven fates.

When Frodo says, "On Mount Doom, doom shall fall.", I think "doom" means "judgement". And now, I'm starting to consider the possibility that this judgement, which of course is solely Eru's, has still not been determined as Frodo walks toward the Sammath Naur and Sam faces Gollum. It will come in an instant, a flash of time and space on the edge of the abyss, when the dark workings of curse and lust and temptation converge to ensure, finally, the destruction of their source under the finger of providence.

Edited for clarity.........hopefully

[Voronwë the Faithful]

And now, I'm starting to consider the possibility that this judgement, which of course is solely Eru's, has still not been determined as Frodo walks toward the Sammath Naur and Sam faces Gollum.

Yes! I think this is critically important. The success of the quest is NOT pre-ordained; it is one of an infinite number of possibilities. I think that it is easy (particularly after many multiple readings) to fall into the trap of thinking that Eru has determined that the quest will succeed and Frodo et al. are just puppets in a play that has already been scripted. Eru of course has a role to play, but I don't believe that He has pre-determined the outcome.

[superwizard]

And now, I'm starting to consider the possibility that this judgement, which of course is solely Eru's, has still not been determined as Frodo walks toward the Sammath Naur and Sam faces Gollum.

Yes! I think this is critically important. The success of the quest is NOT pre-ordained; it is one of an infinite number of possibilities. I think that it is easy (particularly after many multiple readings) to fall into the trap of thinking that Eru has determined that the quest will succeed and Frodo et al. are just puppets in a play that has already been scripted. Eru of course has a role to play, but I don't believe that He has pre-determined the outcome.

I quite agree with both of you, after reading things such as when Gandalf tells Frodo that he (Gandalf) was meant to choose Frodo you begin to forget that Frodo was not just a mere pawn in Eru's plan. Thanks for the reminder!:D

[axordil]

The success of the quest is NOT pre-ordained; it is one of an infinite number of possibilities. I think that it is easy (particularly after many multiple readings) to fall into the trap of thinking that Eru has determined that the quest will succeed and Frodo et al. are just puppets in a play that has already been scripted. Eru of course has a role to play, but I don't believe that He has pre-determined the outcome.

Well, yes and no. As I've noted before, Hamlet needed Acts IV and V, and LOTR has a bittersweet ending, not a tragic one. So in a way they ARE all puppets, except they are JRRT's, not Eru's. The trick of fiction is to make you forget that it is by nature a deterministic art form. LOTR is not a "choose your story" book.

In the context of the story there are far fewer possible outcomes that both satisfy the needs of the plot, the nature of the characters, and the moral sensibility of the author. I can think of about two, really, of which we see one in the book. The other one involves more or less the same macro-level outcome, with Frodo dying.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I can think of others, more bitter, then sweet.

[axordil]

Well, clearly, the Ring is going to be destroyed. Any outcome where that doesn't happen is a non-starter for the genre, much less JRRT. Given that, the only question is one of who lives and who dies...and the only character for whom that would make a moral difference, yet one still in keeping with the rest of the story, is Frodo.

[Primula Baggins]

I agree with Ax that looking at the story from "outside," keeping in mind why JRRT would find it worth telling, the only other possible ending would be Frodo's death in destroying the Ring.

That doesn't mean, though, that "inside" the story things could not have gone wrong at any number of points. The "finger of providence" could only intervene because Bilbo and others had spared Gollum and because Frodo and Sam had gotten themselves to the Cracks of Doom. This is why I could never think of these characters as puppets, any more than my teenage children are my puppets when they happen to make a decision I would have wished them to make.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

I am not going to express myself with the skill and insight of Athrabeth and the others but what she says is close to my thoughts but one gloss I would like to make is that the twice told oath/curse in effect caused the Ring to destroy itself and to make Sméagol fall. One could argue that the destiny of fire, first willingly sworn upon by Gollum and then the commandment through the Ring on the slopes of Mount Doom tied the Ring itself into self destruction if Gollum seized it. On that basis Frodo could be credited with deep wisdom.

[MithLuin]

It is also much easier to predict the ending after you've read it .

Meaning, most people are surprised when Frodo claims the Ring. We've gotten to this point knowing that the whole point of the Quest is to throw it in the fire...but then...he doesn't do it.

And yes, on reflection, we realize he couldn't have done that...but seriously, I've watched the movie with people who got to Frodo standing on the brink and said "hurry up! Do it now!" not realizing that he...wasn't going to do it. I think readers of the book are also a bit surprised by Frodo's "failure."

I'm just pointing out that the most obvious solution, while it wouldn't have worked, is not absent from first-time readers' minds.

To pick another story where we don't know the ending yet...Lord Voldemort will certainly be defeated in the 7th Harry Potter book. This is inevitable. But how? Many fans (admitedly, some rather young) think that Harry is going to cast a killing curse on him. This almost certainly will not happen, but it is the most straightforward solution. Once you rule out that possibility, it isn't easy to see what will happen. We know that love (on Harry's part) and fear of death (on Voldemort's part) will play into it...but we don't know what it will be.

Likewise, we know that Providence and Pity are playing into what happens on Mount Doom, but that doesn't mean that we can predict Frodo claiming the Ring, Gollum biting it off his finger, and then falling into the Fire. If we were attentive, we could probably predict Frodo being unable to toss in the Ring, and Gollum's death. But I doubt anyone new to the story does better than that.