Crossword clues
Because there are "conventions" and rules, that's why I get so furious when the puzzle maker tosses a monkey wrench into the works. Now and again a word is used that can only be recognized by stretching the limits of "useage".
My personal most hated one is mentioned earlier in this thread: "start of knitting" was the clue. "silentk" was the answer. Never said "two words" or any other clue that it wasn't just an ordinary word. It wasn't a cryptic puzzle, just an ordinary one in the newspaper, not the tough one, but the every day one in which mean tricks are verboten. Or should be. The guy made the puzzle, had this dorky word combination, was too lazy to fix it, and DROVE ME CRAZY. Which is why I'm the way I am.
It's his fault.
My personal most hated one is mentioned earlier in this thread: "start of knitting" was the clue. "silentk" was the answer. Never said "two words" or any other clue that it wasn't just an ordinary word. It wasn't a cryptic puzzle, just an ordinary one in the newspaper, not the tough one, but the every day one in which mean tricks are verboten. Or should be. The guy made the puzzle, had this dorky word combination, was too lazy to fix it, and DROVE ME CRAZY. Which is why I'm the way I am.
It's his fault.
Dig deeper.
- truehobbit
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Jny - but you knew you were right, so what does it matter whether you got the explanation right? I think I'd have just said I got the answer, only the clue doesn't quite work.
'Take a person for a ride, but not take them along' or so
So, would "short English thanks" make "tea" or would something that actually refers to tea have to be stuck in?
I got the last one however - it's Vison!
Yes, true - the clue should have said to leave out "along" somehow.Aravar wrote: If one were being very strict one could object to 'string' meaning 'take for a ride' because it is 'string along' that means take for a ride, but sting of itslf does: it was the title of a movie on the subject with Paul Newman and Robert Redford.
'Take a person for a ride, but not take them along' or so
Absolutely - that's what I said. It's just that , for me, there comes a point when the arbitrariness is so contrived that it's just groanworthy. To use one of your examples, Run for R because it's in Cricket. English for E.It is not that the conventions are being mixed with logic. Certain things with crosswords are the premises from which the logic flows: that all solutions be real words or abbreviations, thatr the solution relate to the whole of the clue. In the same way the rules of a standard sudoku puzzle require that each row column and box of nine contins the numbers 1 to 9. That is arbitrary, but only in the same way that the rule that a bishop moves diagonally in chess is arbitrary.
So, would "short English thanks" make "tea" or would something that actually refers to tea have to be stuck in?
I got the last one however - it's Vison!
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
- Parmamaite
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Exactly! you grasped the very essence of cryptic crosswords!truehobbit wrote:So, the actual clue was just to make it more confusing?
but you obviously don't like them well, I guess it's an acquired taste.truehobbit wrote:It's just that , for me, there comes a point when the arbitrariness is so contrived that it's just groanworthy. To use one of your examples, Run for R because it's in Cricket. English for E.
On another note: Are cryptic crosswords known in other languages? I know for certain that there's nothing of the kind in Denmark, but how about in the rest of the world? Are there cryptic crosswords in french? german? dutch? spanish? Or is it only the brits who're crazy enough to waste their time on this stuff?
Come to think of it, do American or Australian newspapers print cryptic crosswords?
I've never seen a cryptic in a US newspaper, Parma, but we have another kind of crossword that appears in the daily papers where the grid is almost solid, so that every letter of the word has a cross, and all those crosses cross, you know ... it must terribly difficult to set them. But as a result there are some bizarre conventions there too, using all kinds of abbreviations and archaic words. You can buy crossword dictionaries that give you the special usages.
Jn
Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
- Parmamaite
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We have them in India... Sunday's were cryptic, and daily was easy. One newspaper I think had both, everyday - same crossword - one with cryptic clues and the other with easy ones.
Must be a british thing passed onto us.
Must be a british thing passed onto us.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
But R for run or right isn't arbitrary, nor is TAR for sailor: in each case it is a genuine usage or abbreviation which is being used in the crossword. They exists in the real world too.truehobbit wrote:
Absolutely - that's what I said. It's just that , for me, there comes a point when the arbitrariness is so contrived that it's just groanworthy. To use one of your examples, Run for R because it's in Cricket. English for E.
So, would "short English thanks" make "tea" or would something that actually refers to tea have to be stuck in?
I got the last one however - it's Vison!
For example:
'Pennsylvania and Connecticut make a treaty'
is not using anything other than real world usage.
In your tea example, you would probably need another reference eg
'Short English thanks for a refreshing drink'.
- truehobbit
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Yes, it's real, but to stick the word "run" into the clue, so that people will know they need to stick an 'r' somewhere in the solution is incredibly far-fetched! That's what I mean by contrived. If you don't know the conventions, it seems to be impossible to solve the puzzle.But R for run or right isn't arbitrary, nor is TAR for sailor: in each case it is a genuine usage or abbreviation which is being used in the crossword. They exists in the real world too.
How do people learn the conventions in the first place?
See, this is what makes it so confusing for me. "Short English thanks" makes "tea" if you see it as a letter-puzzle, and "refreshing drink" makes "tea" by definition, too - but under no circumstances can you define "tea" as 'Short English thanks for a refreshing drink' - the clue doesn't make sense to me.'Short English thanks for a refreshing drink'.
Parma, we do have a sort of cryptic crossword, and I like them better than normal crosswords, which just ask definitions, but ours are quite different from English ones. There are conventions, of course, and knowing them means you can solve the crossword more quickly, but you don't need to know them to solve it - a bit of out-of-the-box thinking will get you there, too. My first one was given us by a teacher at school, and we could solve it without any pre-knowledge. They are usually called "Tricky crossword" and they are supposed to be amusing rather than just hard, and the clues often rely on puns and word ambiguities.
I had a look at one and even found a clue that works in translation, because the solution is English (there are harder clues, this one is particularly easy): "Hilary was that kind of lady".
Another funny kind of puzzle is a kind of "Silbenrätsel" (not sure if there's a name for it in English - it's not a crossword, but just a list of words to find, and all the syllables of the words are given in a list on top) - in this puzzle compound nouns are given misinterpreted definitions, for example "war horse that is part of the artillery", or so.
The hardest puzzles I've come across are those that just give a list of clues, but they are not in the right order, so in addition to answering the clue you have to figure out where in the crossword it goes. This only works if you can answer all the clues, of course, and as they are always ordinary definition clues, I can never answer them all.
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
"Short English thanks" makes "tea" if you see it as a letter-puzzle, and "refreshing drink" makes "tea" by definition, too - but under no circumstances can you define "tea" as 'Short English thanks for a refreshing drink' - the clue doesn't make sense to me.
But Hobby, thats what you have to do in Cryptic! Am not an expert on cryptic crosswords - but the key is essentially this. One part of the clue will be an indication, a meaning - if you will, and the other is always something of a letter puzzle. You might have to rejumble 3 words to make one, which will give the meaning of the first or second half of the clue sentence.
I like cryptic. My husband taught them to me.... and we spent a large part of our "honeymoon" (I don't like this word, but still) doing cryptic crosswords.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
- truehobbit
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I think that's why I don't like them, Mahima. It irritates me that the clue as such is meaningless.
Parma's example was like that, too: horses right to take for a ride outside - this makes no sense as a sentence, and because of that I can't bring myself to bother to solve it.
'Short English thanks for a refreshing drink' makes sense as a sentence, but if I found that it was supposed to define "tea", I'd be annoyed at how little sense it makes.
I guess we all have different ideas of being romantic.
Parma's example was like that, too: horses right to take for a ride outside - this makes no sense as a sentence, and because of that I can't bring myself to bother to solve it.
'Short English thanks for a refreshing drink' makes sense as a sentence, but if I found that it was supposed to define "tea", I'd be annoyed at how little sense it makes.
and we spent a large part of our "honeymoon" doing cryptic crosswords.
I guess we all have different ideas of being romantic.
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
Yes, I think that's probably true. There are websites, though, where you can get lists of cryptic conventions and examples.hobby wrote:If you don't know the conventions, it seems to be impossible to solve the puzzle.
I didn't get it at first either because I thought the clues were only plays on words, and most of the clues made no sense to me at all so I never bothered trying to solve them.
I got "starboard" and "pact" from Aravar, but I still don't get why Short English Thanks add up to "tea."
Here's one I thought of last night. It's easy, but a good example (I think) of how every word in the clue has to be used by the answer.
Stretch it out for that rhyming fellow (7)
Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
I can explain "short English thanks"
The shortened from of thanks in (British) English is "ta" English is abbreviated "e" and is stuck in the middle of the clue. So, "tea"
Longfellow could be the rhymer, maybe? so "long" would be in it. Or it could be "loooong"
Or stretch "it" out could mean that the word begins with "i" and ends with "t" Or "for" could mean something about the 4th letter.
There's Thomas the Rymer, and William Shakespear, and the Rime of the Ancient Mariner.
I'll guess "Ancient"
The shortened from of thanks in (British) English is "ta" English is abbreviated "e" and is stuck in the middle of the clue. So, "tea"
Longfellow could be the rhymer, maybe? so "long" would be in it. Or it could be "loooong"
Or stretch "it" out could mean that the word begins with "i" and ends with "t" Or "for" could mean something about the 4th letter.
There's Thomas the Rymer, and William Shakespear, and the Rime of the Ancient Mariner.
I'll guess "Ancient"
Aha! I get it now. I didn't know that 'ta' was 'thanks.' I thought 'ta' was 'goodbye.'Mith wrote:he shortened from of thanks in (British) English is "ta" English is abbreviated "e" and is stuck in the middle of the clue. So, "tea"
That part is right.Longfellow could be the rhymer
vison, you're making it more complicated than it is.
Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
This sort of thing is an anapest. In the pestiferous sense.
My friend Christine, when I pour her a cup of tea, says, "Ta, ever so." When she leaves my house, she says, "Ta ta for now." Sometimes that's abbreviated to "ttfn".
I once thought this was terribly funny:
"You're a poet and don't know it.
But your nose shows it:
It's a longfellow."
My friend Christine, when I pour her a cup of tea, says, "Ta, ever so." When she leaves my house, she says, "Ta ta for now." Sometimes that's abbreviated to "ttfn".
I once thought this was terribly funny:
"You're a poet and don't know it.
But your nose shows it:
It's a longfellow."
Dig deeper.
- truehobbit
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True, one "ta" is "thanks", two "ta"s is "bye" - LOL!
Hey, nobody tried my other clues yet! (Guess they were a bit too easy. )
And I'm still wondering about that treaty between Pennsylvania and Connecticut.
I don't get how every word can be used in the answer in yours, Jny.
Hey, nobody tried my other clues yet! (Guess they were a bit too easy. )
And I'm still wondering about that treaty between Pennsylvania and Connecticut.
I don't get how every word can be used in the answer in yours, Jny.
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.